Get Someone to Pay Me on Time

Yup, OwenM. Resentment; you nailed it. I hate getting jerked around. Asking for money and being told a lie gets my backside up real quick. It's true she is about to find out that not meeting my standard of pre-payment results in the chop.

The devil will be in the details. People like this will try to find another angle. I'm wondering if I need to accept PayPal so that I can see the $ in the account before she shows up. If it's not there she can use my computer to make the payment in front of me!:D or hit the trail.

This will also be deducted from her lesson time!
 
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Like the old saying goes, "If someone does something to you once, shame on them. If they do it twice, shame on you." Sometimes you have to quit being nice and just cut somebody off. It would be unfortunate to lose a student, but it might free up some time for you to teach a person who is willing to pay you what they owe in a timely manner.
 
When my dad was a graphic artist & designer for signs & advertising, he would run into this kind of thing occasionally. A couple of years after graduating college, he ran into one of his instructors, and in catching up on life, told him about these situations. The instructors' direction (paraphrased): "You need to gain a strong conviction about how valuable your time is. I didn't waste my time teaching you. Don't waste your time with clients who repeatedly shine you on." He was a very friendly guy, but his whole tone changed when he said this. It really had an impact on my dad (a positive impact, I mean), and me too. My dad would work with - and get along with - anyone, but he could be a real pitbull when he had to.

IMHO, If someone contracts for a service, they need to pay, on time, or make arrangements ahead of time.

Just my $0.02.

thx - cpr
 
Thanks one and all. I can't think of a single reply that gave bad advice or lent a useless opinion. While I conducted business in a less formal fashion for years it doesn't mean that I don't need to revamp my policies and business practices.

cpr, I think that you captured the dynamic in a nutshell. We learn to be good at what we do not how to sell it. Since I never ran into a person like her I preferred to keep things less formalized. But no more, at least in her case.

I went to the website of one of the schools where I teach and copied their schedule, payment plan and policies. If I like the change I will adopt it with the others. Everything will be pre-paid and there will be a set academic calendar. I'm thinking of adding PayPal and online banking payment options so that the checkbook is out of the equation.

Do any of you have feedback on accepting PayPal as a form of payment? Any drawbacks?

Also I understand that BoA has a service where electronic transfers are free between its members. Reasonable? Drawbacks?
 
This may sound bad, but please take it as it is intended. Women (and men) often feel threatened when in a dynamic that places one in a position that could be perceived as "inferior" to another. You say she is an accomplished professional and is probably accustomed to being the "Alpha" in most of her interpersonal relationships. Perhaps she resents being in a situation where she is in the weaker position and is using the payment issue to gain an "upper hand" as it were. A pure power thing. I've seen it played out in both business settings and personal settings, and have had the unique experience of having it explained to me by more that a few women that I've known. This exists between men as well, but men tend to keep the "acting out" to a minimum.
Best of luck in resolving this. There has been some very good, concrete advice given by Ren and the others.
Cheers,
Mike
(Not a shrink, but I play one on the innerwebs) ;)
 
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Rugger said:
This may sound bad, but please take it as it is intended. Women (and men) often feel threatened when in a dynamic that places one in a position that could be perceived as "inferior" to another. You say she is an accomplished professional and is probably accustomed to being the "Alpha" in most of her interpersonal relationships. Perhaps she resents being in a situation where she is in the weaker position and is using the payment issue to gain an "upper hand" as it were. A pure power thing. I've seen it played out in both business settings and personal settings, and have had the unique experience of having it explained to me by more that a few women that I've known. This exists between men as well, but men tend to keep the "acting out" to a minimum.
Best of luck in resolving this. There has been some very good, concrete advice given by Ren and the others.
Cheers,
Mike
(Not a shrink, but I play one on the interwebs) ;)
Click to expand...

This is my assessment as well, though I try not to pigeon-hole people, like you I'm not a shrink.:) BTW no offense taken at all.

You are right it is very humbling to learn an instrument. I make it look easy and no matter how smart she is she can't control her body the way I can. She tries to rationalize her problems, giving me anatomy lessons in breathing and how the tongue and soft pallete work...Of course I know these things as a professional wind player, but they don't really help a person get the 'feel' and 'sound' of doing things correctly. In fact, thinking about anatomy can get in the way of the body's abilities. I mentioned the PhD because she puts her credentials on her check. I always find that a bit odd. I would never advertise that I have earning potential when I go to buy something!

I just spoke with a nurse who does medical collection with a 99% success rate. She has gone to seminars for MD's and medical personnel regarding handling patients, including bill collecting. The first thing the nurse said was that my student's behavior demonstrates that she is insecure.

This person has other 'issues' so I've also been trying to figure out how to get the best result taking the psychological component into account. IOW is it better to somehow make her think that she has some control? (But I'm not manipulative...as you can see.)

I almost wrote that it is a pure power thing. I don't generally get into pissing contests, but now I'm convinced that I have a valid complaint, that it is proper for me to have the power on this point.

Thanks Mike! You may have missed you calling.
 
Annr, when I was in private practice I had patients ALL THE TIME stiffing me on bills. NO ONE likes the confrontation of telling someone to pay up, but people WILL TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOU if you don't. I had to threaten a patient with small claims court after taking care of his son with headaches (no more headaches after a handful of adjustments), but I had a check the next day. I hated every minute of it.

When it comes to deadbeats and/or other people in your business who are bad for business, there are some things I've learned and have found to be universal truths:

1) NEVER accept partial payment for what you do unless YOU make that choice and work it out with the other party beforehand. By this I mean you may find talent in a particular potential student who can't afford your services. Maybe YOU decide to offer them free lessons or deeply discounted lessons. That's fine. But when a student decides THEY won't pay the full fee, cut them loose.

2) A lot of very seemingly successful people go through life ripping people off constantly. Don't stand for it. Demand your money, go to small claims court if you have to, and then when you've collected cut the person loose. Stop doing lessons for her until she pays you, it's as simple as that.

3) The stress this is causing you is not worth keeping this person in your life. Say goodbye to her. You will feel a LOT better about it.

4) Something I noticed when I was in private practice was that as soon as I let a patient go who was a deadbeat or not taking my advice, they were replaced, almost immediately, by someone better. It's as if a great patient were WAITING for me, and I only had to make room in my practice for them. It may be different in your line of work, but I think this is a universal rule.
 
If she doesn't respect you or your art enough to pay you, do you really want her as a student? I would (and have) gotten rid of people like that. Respect your art, and don't sell it to disrespectful people. My experience is this:
get rid of her and you'll get 2 good people to fill her place.
If you really feel the need to keep her and be abused, I don't think you will feel good about it.
My two cents after many years of teaching.
 
Annr,

Best of luck with your student. Maybe she should take up the recorder instead of the oboe. (Or is it maybe English horn? Until you mentioned wind my first guess was oboe or tympanni.)

Go ahead and put her in control - pay for lesson, get lesson. Don't pay, no lesson. The idea about paying two lessons in advance also has a lot of merit.
 
Chiro75, Wooden Chicken and WA Martin,

It’s true what you say Chiro about some people feeling entitled and there is a lot of that sort of thing going around in Boston. I’m not from here and it is a stark contrast to the attitude I knew. She’s a person to make gender an issue and also belongs to at least one other minority group so she’s a package.

Maybe she’s the cause of that neck ache I’ve been getting?:D BTW chiropractors are very helpful to musicians. We put an incredible strain on our bodies. I chuckle when these amateurs complain about a little ache or pain. (Try doing it six hours a day for 30 years I think. Playing an instrument is not for wimps.:cool:)

Both you and WoodenChicken make good points about the karma of the world and I’m ready to let her go now that I’ve sorted out what’s hers and what’s mine. I love what I do and don’t want her to spoil it.

WA Martin,
Yes it is the oboe, how did you guess? I also played the English horn professionally for a number of years and still get called to play EH at times. I’ll pass along your suggestion of the recorder, or maybe the radio.:D
 
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Again, thanks for the outpouring of support and sage advice. This took the edge off my anger and I feel back in the driver’s seat. To play Freud for a moment, I’m sure that some of my ire was self-directed for letting this go on so long.

Well, today is the day! I see her tonight and I’m looking forward to it. I digested all of these POV and came up with a little plan:

“Going Green!” in 2009!

I anticipate that this will have great appeal for my students and there is even a bonus to me. How can they refuse going paperless?:D
I plan to take Pay Pal only. Plenty of places do this. The other option is cash by arrangement. I may only do it with her to test the waters. This will include pre-payment, NO lessons without payment, verifiable on the computer.

If she balks or it becomes onerous I will come up with another reason by the end of January to resort to the fixed academic semester with signed contract.

If she gives me any trouble along the way I will pull the plug. I considered the possibility that she may be planning to quit.
 
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This is definitely an interesting thread, apparently Ren is smarter than I gave him credit for...:)

I understand your reluctance to dump her, I sense that she will bad mouth you to no end and your reputation may suffer for her ignorance.

Payment up front makes sense, as you have reserved that time.
Let nothing slide. If she shows up without payment, send her home. That will either shake her up, or rid her for good.

She may not like your policy of emailing $ talk. It may have set her off to be a bit contrary and petulant. Some people still don't like the computer.

Up front and in person, tell your students the main points and give them a written copy to take home...heck make that a signed contract along with your schedule. The good students will think nothing of it, and it's a great stick to follow up the deadbeats with.

I would be careful with paypal only. I would also consider the online banking options offered through your bank.

There are several anti paypal websites that offer more info...what I gathered is, If a customer makes a complaint out of spite, or even the best of intentions, your account is frozen and or seized. You have no recourse like you do with banking laws...money gone. If your account is frozen because a dispute, paypal will continue to allow deposits to your account that you will never see... so you end up owing your students for cash never received.

Setup a separate bank account linked to the paypal to get your money out.
Don't allow it to accumulate in paypal.
 
Thanks Steven,
You are right, I was considering my 'name', since in my racket, the music biz, name counts.

I agree that she may not like the email $$ bit-- more likely because it will call her bluff. I know for a fact that she is a terrific emailer. But some people don't like doing financial transactions online and I respect that. That other part of going green is CASH, the greenest.

I was wondering just the type of thing you mentioned regarding PayPal, what my rights are and if she could make my life more difficult. I was thinking of taking cash payments only and then moving it right out into my bank account, but I see your point. And dealing with fees just wastes my time. BTW the thing that I resent most is that she wastes my time and energy when I have to collect from her. But this thread has been a learning experience, so not all bad. :) I'm going to see what she does today; she may have the check. I agree that I have to think out the payment issue carefully and may wait until the New Year to present my policies: I don't want to act in haste and repent in leisure.

So you think the bank transfer is safer than the Pay Pal? Perhaps I should present her with this option only. I'm resolved on what I want and when; it's the details that are a bit trickier, unless I want to adopt a 'take no prisioners' approach and I don't think that we are there yet. Of course, if she were to do something outrageous I now have no compunction about dropping her. There is even a kind way to do that: I am just too busy.
 
annr, I would just print up a copy of this thread and hand it to her along with her bill. She ought to understand how much mental energy and stress her lack of respect is causing.

I also agree with payment up front for this student, and if she doesn't produce, the lesson is canceled. You give her an inch, I'll bet she'll take a mile.
 
Ann this has really been very interesting please keep us updated as to what happens. Thanks very much
 
xbxb said:
Ann this has really been very interesting please keep us updated as to what happens. Thanks very much
Click to expand...

I'm so happy that there is some human interest quotient, even if this whole thing goes bust!! (no pun:eek:). I'm bringing my adding machine and calendar.

T minus 40" and counting:

plan:

keep it light,
how was your Christmas? etc.
ask for the check at the end if she doesn't mention it first
Pull out the adding machine if need be
Tell her when the next payment is due and how much. Offer to write it down. Tell her all lessons need to be pre-paid-- no exceptions and payment happens before the lesson starts.

If no check:

No lesson next week until the last two and the next few, four I say, are pre-paid.

This should lead to:

..... that I have a Christmas present for her;): direct bank transfer. I understand how difficult it is to remember to bring checks and that I would love to do something to help her... and so that the lessons will be pre-paid.

Also, depending, tell her about going green; I'm not going to get too specific until I explore the drawback of the PayPal and get a read on if it is worth it with her.

Follow-up with email and written material.
I think I can afford to play this by ear; she has never stiffed me, just miffed me.:D

Now we'll see how it goes......
 
If you want me to I will sic the flying monkeys on her, but we must be careful, sometimes they grab the wrong person then you have scratching, bananas etc. everywhere. I don't want the instruments to get screwed up. Let me know. After thinking it through I believe your way is best.
 
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annr said:
Yes it is the oboe, how did you guess? I also played the English horn professionally for a number of years and still get called to play EH at times. I’ll pass along your suggestion of the recorder, or maybe the radio.:D
Click to expand...

I am a member of the Okanogan Valley Orchestra and Chorus, singing bass in the choir (sorry, I refuse to call it chorus because I think it makes us sound second rate). We usually get to sing with the Orchestra for the Christmas concert (last year we did selections from Messiah, this year selections from a Cantata). I just thought of the orchestra members and who would be the most likely to tell the conductor to XXX-off. :D
 
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar?:confused:

We had the lesson and things went essentially according to plan. We started with some pleasantries. When I asked what was new:

“I remembered my checkbook.”

“Yes, that is new.”

The lesson went well and at the end she offered to pay me. I got out my adding machine; we computed the total together and now are caught up and pre-paid three lessons.

Things were going so well that I offered:

“I’ve been thinking about the New Year and ‘going green’. How would you feel about paying online?”

She lit up and seemed thrilled:

“I really like the idea of going green. I do all my banking online, but you would still receive a check with online banking.”

I explained that I was hoping to go paperless; perhaps we could set up a direct transfer. She thought a moment and said, “Yes, I could add you to my payees.”

I agreed that that would probably work but that I wouldn’t expect a regular monthly transfer, just a transfer for every four scheduled lessons, as we had been doing. That seemed to set well with her. I reiterated that being fair was paramount in my practices.

Then I moved on to the issue of sending her reminders:

“Reminders are good.”

“OK, then I’ll send you a reminder after your pre-payment expires and you will pay me?”


I can’t say that I got the best affirmation, but I think that I made my point and it is worth trying this new approach. (I also mentioned that it is simply too much work for me to be keeping track of all of my students' payments with multiple reminders. Message received.)
After all of this, motivations and personality aside, I honestly still don’t know if she is absent minded or if using a checkbook was a pain for her, or if she was using me…or a bit of each. The net effect is that I deduced by default that I was being used and was dissatisfied.

I would rate this as a success for now and can report the progress if anyone likes.:) The next opportunity will be in about 3-4 weeks to see if this makes any difference of not. I'm just about to discuss 'going green' with another student--take any bets?:D

Ren, I am saving a copy of your blueprint for collecting, it was so well stated. After everyone’s contributions I felt good, in control and that I was doing the right thing for myself.:thumbup:

I’ll share that there were a few things in the back of my mind:

Always allow anyone annoying another attempt at acting agreeably.” :D(A saying I developed about 30 years ago.)

My mother’s teaching that you never know what is going on in another person’s life: illness, death, job stress, the holidays, and the stock market. So give the person the benefit of the doubt. Even she thought that I needed to get to the bottom of this one way or the other.

The best boss I ever had treated people like individuals. If he could make a minor concession to make an employee happy and more productive he didn’t mind. If the concession didn’t work and he couldn’t “work” with the person to find a mutually satisfying solution the employee would be fired.
 
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Glad to hear it's starting to turn around for you, Ann!

With my teacher, I've missed a few lessons because the date changes on the second week of the month and with the holidays and a stomache bug, I got absent minded. Since he's the best voice teacher I've met, I don't want my lessons to become unprofitable for him, so I read your situation and the offered advice to selfishly find out how not to be "that" student.

Anyways, hope you'll have a great year and that your student is able to send you green in a timely manner or that you're able to get a better student should her habits return.
 
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