Getting Started into Sharpening

[hillrunner]

Lately I’ve gotten interested in knives and knife sharpening, and am planning to start a knife collection.

As I was saying in my introduction thread, I’m very interested in metallurgy and the comparison of different knife steels, and how the steel can be tailored through alloying in order to achieve the desired performance requirements, whether the priority is edge retention, toughness, or resistance to corrosion.

I’ve really gotten interested in freehand sharpening, and I’ve sorta gotten addicted to Michael Christy’s YouTube channel. He is extremely skilled at sharpening, and he inspires me to want to learn to bring a knife to the level of “hair-whittling sharp”.

I have a basic understanding of the concept of sharpening. I enjoy detailing my cars, and, interestingly, there is some crossover between polishing the finish of a car and sharpening, in that you are removing material to get the desired result, starting with a coarse compound (or stone) and progressing to medium, then fine, etc.

So, I don’t have many knives now. I just bought my first “nice” pocket knife - a Ferrum Forge “Gent” sold by Massdrop (S35VN). I also have a cheap $25 Camillus in AUS-8 and a Kershaw Leek in 14C28N.

Here’s a short closeup detail video I uploaded on my Gent:

After watching Michael Christy’s channel, I’ve got my eye on a Spyderco Military... Not sure yet what steel I’d want it in. I like the idea of a supersteel, but I’d want to be able to maintain the edge.

Here’s one of Michael’s videos. It features the Spyderco Military with carbon fiber handle scale and Ti framelock, in S90V alloy:

In the kitchen, I have a cheap set of Chicago Cutlery kitchen knives and a small set of Cutco (which are good quality), however, among those Cutco knives, the only one that isn’t serrated is my Chef knife.

I intend to learn on the cheaper knives before attempting to sharpen something like my Gent (S35VN).

So, my question is, with so many different stones and strops and compounds available, is there some consensus on a good brand that offers good value? When I’m buying something, I like a lot of value for my money. On a scale of 1-10, if 10 is the absolute best, I tend to usually go for the 6-7, if that makes sense. I don’t have to have the very best, but I want some quality and longevity from an item.

What about sets? Would there be a kit available that would include a few stones? Say, a coarse, medium, fine, and super-fine?

I’d like to be able to sharpen my kitchen knives and steak knives as well... Can the stones that would ordinarily be used to sharpen pocket knives, also be used to put a good edge on my kitchen knives?

As I say, I’d love to get to the level of skill that it takes to bring up a “hair-whittling” edge on a knife. However I do realize that it takes time and practice, and I don’t expect to get there overnight.

So what stones and strop(s) should I get?

Thanks guys,

John

 

[marchone]

Buy a Spyderco Sharpmaker and a pair of diamond rods to supplement it for super steels.

 

[Bill3152]

I would for versatility get some dmts.325 and 600. If you ever needed anything below that like chip removal a piece of low grit sandpaper can do the grunt work. You can get a piece of 3in x 3in x12 in balsa wood at hobby lobby. Flatten all four sides with sandpaper or a belt sander and then apply various compounds and even stick a piece of leather on that. But for kitchen work I think a 220 finish deburred works very well. You can use the DMT 325 for that. The strops are more for pocket knives. There's a ton of pastes you can use to extend the life of the edge.

 

[hillrunner]

Buy a Spyderco Sharpmaker and a pair of diamond rods to supplement it for super steels.

Thanks for the reply.

I guess I should have said that I’m wanting to learn freehand sharpening, with stones and strops and compounds, first, as a foundation. I’m not opposed to eventually trying a knife sharpener, but I’d really like to learn “the old-fashioned way”.

 

[Dangerously]

I started freehand with a couple of DMT double-sided stones. With two double sided stones, you can get diamond grits from extra coarse to extra fine. And after that, you’re better off with diamond compounds on wood strops anyway.

Anyway, the two I got, which I still use every few days for something, are the 8” extra-coarse/coarse with base (W8CX-WB) and the 8” fine/extra-fine with base (W8EF-WB). Very happy with them.

I use them on all my pocket knives, from soft 1095 to 64 HRC s110v and zdp-189. They are also great for all my kitchen knives, with one exception: I only use waterstones on fancy Japanese kitchen knives in “aogami super” steel.

When you want to do heavy reprofiling on harder steels, I suggest getting a coarser stone, like a DMT XXC or a Norton Crystolon Coarse. But that’s not needed for normal sharpening. And when you want to get into very sharp finishing, I’d suggest a balsa or basswood strop with 1 micron diamond paste. I use the DMT paste, but I’m not married to it. I’d like to find a good spray as it seems easier to apply.

If you don’t use too much pressure, the DMT plates will last years and years without needing maintenance like flattening. I’ve have mine for more than 5 years now, and they’re not showing signs of wear. They take a sharpening or two to break in though. Use a crappy knife first.

 

[Mo2]

Thanks for the reply.

I guess I should have said that I’m wanting to learn freehand sharpening, with stones and strops and compounds, first, as a foundation. I’m not opposed to eventually trying a knife sharpener, but I’d really like to learn “the old-fashioned way”.

Start with some edge pro stones. Gritomatic has an assortment in different types and iirc edge pro has some new diamond matrix stones which are the new bonded stones. Start out with some sic edge pro stones. They are 1x6 so you can freehand with them fairly easily and they are affordable. Also easier to do re curves with this size. They can be done on a table top or while holding them in hand.

Otherwise a larger benchstone works well too if you are more comfortable doing it that way on a table.

For the super steels I recommend bonded diamond stones. Dmt style stones are going to get the same results but for a beginner you may damage the diamonds on the surface. While bonded stones can be refreshed if you use them wrong while practicing.

For most steels I prefer silicon carbide aka sic. For the softer steels like your kitchen knives, alumina oxide works well. Water stones too.

 

[Craig James]

I’m similar to you in that I have only recently started sharpening. I used a dmt diasharp coarse for all of my knifes the first time round and finished them on some generic 2000/6000 water stone that I got off amazon. For my kitchen knives they definitely do the trick.

I’m now looking into getting some more decent finishing stones. As I don’t own super steels I’ve been looking at the naniwa’s as I like the feel more. For you I’d recommend sticking with the diamonds for your super steels.

I’ve heard some not so great things about the dmt EF but as I don’t own one myself I can’t add in personal experience

 

[Eli Chaps]

Welcome and good for you wanting to learn to sharpen!

First things first...Understand, those hair whittling edges are cool and all, and if you want to pursue them by all means do so, just know that that level of sharpness will fall of quickly. Like usually within a few cuts, even if it is S90V and the like.

Next, probably the most critical piece of kit you can have is a permanent marker. I like red because it is easy to see. Use that to mark the bevel and guide your sharpening. I lighted loupe is also nice but not as critical.

I started a thread here somewhere a while back about a minimum four stone setup. You might want to search for it and read people's inputs.

I would also recommend going on YouTube and searching for videos by JDavis882 and OUTDOORS55 who both have videos up for beginner or minimum kits. They differ quite a bit but both share some type of low grit diamond as a minimum. They have other great sharpening videos as well. I also like Dean O, Rough Rooster Knife Sharpening, Big Brown Bear (@DeadboxHero), and Jeff Jewell. All of them have their own styles, likes, preferred media, steels and so on and it's great to get the different perspectives.

Know that understanding the edge is the most important thing. It's all about angle, achieving an apex through burr formation, and then eliminating the burr. You should be able to achieve very sharp edges off course stones. The higher grits and strops will refine a sharp edge but they won't create one. If you're interested in super steels then I would recommend a course or extra course diamond as your base. 8"x3" or 2" are best. Six inch stones will eventually disappoint, especially for kitchen cutlery. Diamonds require very little pressure, too much and you'll trash the stone. I like a spritz of window cleaner on mine but it isn't necessary. And on the softer steels, they will remove metal quickly so be diligent and check your edge often.

The course stones aren't something you should be using often. These set your edges and if necessary, bring back very dull or damaged edges. Thereafter, it's best to maintain your edges through high grit stones and/or stropping.

And serrated knives are an entirely different thing. And those ones with the tiny serrated edges are disposable.

Blade Forum's own @HeavyHanded and @FortyTwoBlades also sell sharpening gear that I encourage you to look at.

Know that you will make mistakes. You will have struggles. You will encounter knives that mock you. You will get flustered and occasionally be baffled. We all go through it, even veteran sharpeners. But, you will also be highly rewarded as you learn and have success. It is at once very complicated but incredibly simple. It is for many of us, very satisfying and relaxing and it is a skill you will have forever and allow to be confident in buying knives and can shape your future purchases and likes.

Never hesitate to ask questions of the great folks here on BF.

 

[hillrunner]

I started freehand with a couple of DMT double-sided stones. With two double sided stones, you can get diamond grits from extra coarse to extra fine. And after that, you’re better off with diamond compounds on wood strops anyway.

Anyway, the two I got, which I still use every few days for something, are the 8” extra-coarse/coarse with base (W8CX-WB) and the 8” fine/extra-fine with base (W8EF-WB). Very happy with them.

I use them on all my pocket knives, from soft 1095 to 64 HRC s110v and zdp-189. They are also great for all my kitchen knives, with one exception: I only use waterstones on fancy Japanese kitchen knives in “aogami super” steel.

When you want to do heavy reprofiling on harder steels, I suggest getting a coarser stone, like a DMT XXC or a Norton Crystolon Coarse. But that’s not needed for normal sharpening. And when you want to get into very sharp finishing, I’d suggest a balsa or basswood strop with 1 micron diamond paste. I use the DMT paste, but I’m not married to it. I’d like to find a good spray as it seems easier to apply.

If you don’t use too much pressure, the DMT plates will last years and years without needing maintenance like flattening. I’ve have mine for more than 5 years now, and they’re not showing signs of wear. They take a sharpening or two to break in though. Use a crappy knife first.

Great post. Thank you for taking the time to type all that out!

I like the idea of getting double-sided Stones, so I get 4 levels of abrasive. I’ll take a look at DMT.

So, when you say “heavy reprofiling”, what do you mean? Would that be sharpening a very dull knife?

Re: Diamond spray: Have you seen Michael Christy’s YouTube channel? I discovered it recently and I’ve heard him mention diamond sprays a few times. As a matter of fact, I have heard him mention his source in the comments section. He mentioned the guy he gets it from.

Thanks again!

 

[hillrunner]

Welcome and good for you wanting to learn to sharpen!

First things first...Understand, those hair whittling edges are cool and all, and if you want to pursue them by all means do so, just know that that level of sharpness will fall of quickly. Like usually within a few cuts, even if it is S90V and the like.

Next, probably the most critical piece of kit you can have is a permanent marker. I like red because it is easy to see. Use that to mark the bevel and guide your sharpening. I lighted loupe is also nice but not as critical.

I started a thread here somewhere a while back about a minimum four stone setup. You might want to search for it and read people's inputs.

I would also recommend going on YouTube and searching for videos by JDavis882 and OUTDOORS55 who both have videos up for beginner or minimum kits. They differ quite a bit but both share some type of low grit diamond as a minimum. They have other great sharpening videos as well. I also like Dean O, Rough Rooster Knife Sharpening, Big Brown Bear (@DeadboxHero), and Jeff Jewell. All of them have their own styles, likes, preferred media, steels and so on and it's great to get the different perspectives.

Know that understanding the edge is the most important thing. It's all about angle, achieving an apex through burr formation, and then eliminating the burr. You should be able to achieve very sharp edges off course stones. The higher grits and strops will refine a sharp edge but they won't create one. If you're interested in super steels then I would recommend a course or extra course diamond as your base. 8"x3" or 2" are best. Six inch stones will eventually disappoint, especially for kitchen cutlery. Diamonds require very little pressure, too much and you'll trash the stone. I like a spritz of window cleaner on mine but it isn't necessary. And on the softer steels, they will remove metal quickly so be diligent and check your edge often.

The course stones aren't something you should be using often. These set your edges and if necessary, bring back very dull or damaged edges. Thereafter, it's best to maintain your edges through high grit stones and/or stropping.

And serrated knives are an entirely different thing. And those ones with the tiny serrated edges are disposable.

Blade Forum's own @HeavyHanded and @FortyTwoBlades also sell sharpening gear that I encourage you to look at.

Know that you will make mistakes. You will have struggles. You will encounter knives that mock you. You will get flustered and occasionally be baffled. We all go through it, even veteran sharpeners. But, you will also be highly rewarded as you learn and have success. It is at once very complicated but incredibly simple. It is for many of us, very satisfying and relaxing and it is a skill you will have forever and allow to be confident in buying knives and can shape your future purchases and likes.

Never hesitate to ask questions of the great folks here on BF.

Eli - That is a TON of information. Thank you so much!

I’m excited to get started. I’m going to try to get some stones ordered this week, and start looking into the best thing to get as a stropping surface.

I know Michael Christy has mentioned basswood as a stropping surface, and someone on this thread did, too.

As for stones, the 8”x3” sound like a good size.

 

[hillrunner]

Dangerously The guy I was talking about whom Michael Christy gets his diamond sprays from is Ken Schwartz:

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/cbnsprays.html

 

[Dangerously]

So, when you say “heavy reprofiling”, what do you mean? Would that be sharpening a very dull knife?

I mean putting a much more acute edge angle on the knife. Like, if it comes from the factory with a 20 degree per side edge bevel, and I decide I want it at 12 degrees per side. That ends up being quite a bit of metal you have to grind off, and you’ll be hours and hours unless you have an appropriately coarse stone. Even then it can be hours on hard steels.

Dangerously The guy I was talking about whom Michael Christy gets his diamond sprays from is Ken Schwartz:

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/cbnsprays.html

I’ve seen his channel and those sprays, sure. Thanks for the link. They were out of stock when I looked into it a long time ago. Since I’m in Canada, just getting DMT paste for cheaper on the Canadian big river site just seemed easier at the time. One of these days, though.

 

[David Martin]

hillrunner, welcome to the Sharpening Blade Forum. You ask about sharpening, desiring value. I have just not gotten great value with diamond plates. Where I have noticed the best value was from Norton oil stones, their IB-8 a 2 grit coarse/ fine India stone. And their JB-8 (a different material stone) of silicon carbide. Also, a 2 grit stone. Either or these stones offer great economy and will sharpen most any steel. They run 23$ to get it to your door. DM

 

[kreisler]

I think the most popular sharpening system is the Lansky system.

It has the best value for the money ratio.

 

[bgentry]

I have several sharpening systems and sets including water stones, diamond plates, some assorted man made stones, etc. I have to agree with David that the Norton stones are consistently high quality and a very high value for the money. They will cut most steels easily and only start to have issues with really high vanadium steels. Though forum member Ankerson has had no reported trouble with the India stones (Norton) and some rather high vanadium steels so... maybe it's not an issue at all.

What *is* an issue with Norton's India and Crystolon stones is the level of polish from the "fine" stone. Fine Crystolon is around 320 grit (ish), while fine India is around 450 - 500 grit (ish). I personally struggled with the fine India stone when I first got it and couldn't really make good edges. Later in my sharpening I learned to use the fine India and really liked it for certain things. You may do well with it right off the bat, particularly if you learn about technique and use it well. For me, the Spyderco medium was the *magic* stone. It really improved almost any edge that I used it on.

The full sized Spyderco bench stones are not in the "inexpensive" category, though they aren't crazy money either. I do not own the medium bench stone, but I'm sure it's nice to use.

I'm honestly not sure what to recommend for extremely high value in a fine-ish stone. The fine India might be all you need, but it might be hard to get used to; or maybe I'm just a slow learner. That happens with me a lot: LONG ramp up period where I am terrible, followed by a transition where I gain skill rapidly and become somewhat proficient.

If you read nothing else that I say here, read this: Guys tend to be very gear focused. Want to play golf? Let's buy some seriously cool expensive golf clubs. For skiing we research the latest greatest boots, skis, jackets, etc. Same thing for almost any interest or hobby: We want to research and buy gear and we almost always expect to be good just by owning the gear. Which never happens. Technique and skill, gained by practice and good guidance are worth more than the best gear by a LONG shot.

So get some cheap knives (like under $3 each). Preferably some kitchen knives with thin blades. Then practice on them. If you screw them up, you won't cry. ...and when you succeed, it won't have cost you much, but you will have a nice sense of accomplishment of turning a $2 thrift store knife into an arm hair mowing blade.

Read some info here or elsewhere that makes sense to you. I recommend Chad Ward's kitchen knife sharpening tutorial over on egullet. Steve Botorff's "Sharpening Made Easy" web edition is a nice overview too. You might read my Seven Secrets of Sharpening sticky here in the forum, but honestly it's designed to improve sharpening technique, rather than teaching it from zero.

Good luck and good sharpening. We hope to see you back here soon.

Brian.

 

[dgp17]

I'm like you, Hillrunner. I did not own a nice pocket knife or a sharpening stone until mid-December. I watched some YouTube videos and have become obsessed with knives, steel, and sharpening over the last month. Knowing what I know now, I would go back and change my original setup that I bought on Amazon, even though it was the product of weeks or research. Here is what I bought:

King Deluxe 300 whetstone
King KDS 1000/6000 combo whetstone
120/180 cheap diamond plate for lapping
A $20 rubber whetstone holder
A $25 paddle pre-built leather strop that came with the red/white/green compounds

The night I got it all in I tried to sharpen my first knife: a cheap kitchen knife from a cheap block set. Thought it wouldn't be hard because I had watched so many YouTube videos, but my finished edge wouldn't even slice paper. I kept trying that night and I finally got my knife to cleanly slice paper. I was really proud at the time, but it was all luck. I didn't understand burr formation and removal at all--which is everything.

Right after buying the stones, I bought an EDC knife: Spyderco Para3 in M390. I soon learned about the vanadium carbide debate and realized that my stones may not work well on my new knife. All I heard/read about what diamond stones and strops, so I started researching what I needed to get to properly sharpen high carbide steels. I wish I would have done this and understood it before purchasing all of the above.

I have now bought a pocket size Venev 1200/2000 diamond water stone and it's really too small to get anything done. It loads like crazy being so small so you're having to constantly scrub it with a nagura. My best purchases after my initial set-up, no question, were diamond strops.

Jende Industries offers poly diamond emulsion in small $15 bottles. I only sharpen for myself so I don't need a $50 bottle of each micron compound. I bought a 4 micron, 1 micron, 0.25 micron, and 0.1 micron--all poly diamond from Jende. I also went to Hobby Lobby and bought a bag of pre cut basswood. I sanded the tops of those blocks, spread emulsion on each and now store them each in ziplock bags. I whittled my first hair the night I first stropped with diamond on basswood.

The biggest challenge in figuring this out is forming the burr and removing the burr. Consistent angles are so important, too. Diamond strops will only do their job if you start on them when it's the right time to do so. Once you get it once it gets much easier--maybe because you start really understanding what's happening. And I've only been doing this for a couple weeks, so there is still so much to learn.

Two other things that will really help you out: I've started using a headlamp/LED light to check my edges as I go. It really helps to make sure you're paying attention to the entire blade. I also got a cheap 30x/60x LED loupe on Amazon yesterday and it's going to be a game changer in checking burr removal, etc. I posted it in another thread yesterday, but here are two pics I took on my phone camera through the loupe: one at 30x and one at 60x with a whittled hair. As you can see, a 60x view will really allow you to inspect the edge and burr formation/removal as you progress through the sharpening.





Good luck!

 

[hillrunner]

I'm like you, Hillrunner. I did not own a nice pocket knife or a sharpening stone until mid-December. I watched some YouTube videos and have become obsessed with knives, steel, and sharpening over the last month. Knowing what I know now, I would go back and change my original setup that I bought on Amazon, even though it was the product of weeks or research. Here is what I bought:

King Deluxe 300 whetstone
King KDS 1000/6000 combo whetstone
120/180 cheap diamond plate for lapping
A $20 rubber whetstone holder
A $25 paddle pre-built leather strop that came with the red/white/green compounds

The night I got it all in I tried to sharpen my first knife: a cheap kitchen knife from a cheap block set. Thought it wouldn't be hard because I had watched so many YouTube videos, but my finished edge wouldn't even slice paper. I kept trying that night and I finally got my knife to cleanly slice paper. I was really proud at the time, but it was all luck. I didn't understand burr formation and removal at all--which is everything.

Right after buying the stones, I bought an EDC knife: Spyderco Para3 in M390. I soon learned about the vanadium carbide debate and realized that my stones may not work well on my new knife. All I heard/read about what diamond stones and strops, so I started researching what I needed to get to properly sharpen high carbide steels. I wish I would have done this and understood it before purchasing all of the above.

I have now bought a pocket size Venev 1200/2000 diamond water stone and it's really too small to get anything done. It loads like crazy being so small so you're having to constantly scrub it with a nagura. My best purchases after my initial set-up, no question, were diamond strops.

Jende Industries offers poly diamond emulsion in small $15 bottles. I only sharpen for myself so I don't need a $50 bottle of each micron compound. I bought a 4 micron, 1 micron, 0.25 micron, and 0.1 micron--all poly diamond from Jende. I also went to Hobby Lobby and bought a bag of pre cut basswood. I sanded the tops of those blocks, spread emulsion on each and now store them each in ziplock bags. I whittled my first hair the night I first stropped with diamond on basswood.

The biggest challenge in figuring this out is forming the burr and removing the burr. Consistent angles are so important, too. Diamond strops will only do their job if you start on them when it's the right time to do so. Once you get it once it gets much easier--maybe because you start really understanding what's happening. And I've only been doing this for a couple weeks, so there is still so much to learn.

Two other things that will really help you out: I've started using a headlamp/LED light to check my edges as I go. It really helps to make sure you're paying attention to the entire blade. I also got a cheap 30x/60x LED loupe on Amazon yesterday and it's going to be a game changer in checking burr removal, etc. I posted it in another thread yesterday, but here are two pics I took on my phone camera through the loupe: one at 30x and one at 60x with a whittled hair. As you can see, a 60x view will really allow you to inspect the edge and burr formation/removal as you progress through the sharpening.

View attachment 1055430
View attachment 1055431
View attachment 1055432

Good luck!

Maaan, that’s a great looking edge on that knife! Nice job!

Thanks for all the information.

Great suggestion on the jeweler’s loupe. I think I’ll pick up a couple of those.

I’m off for the next couple of days. Looking forward to ordering some sharpening stones and supplies!

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

You have received many good advices. I can add only one thing. Your preference will grow and change over time, depending on what you use the knife for and how you like it feels when making the cut and whether you like longer lasting working edge or better higher sharpness but doesn’t last that long, and how you like to continue maintaining that acceptable level of sharpness (at home, during use, outdoors, etc.).

In sharpening (and later stropping), the combination of steel, heat treatment, abrasive type (hardness, binder, shedding or non shedding), pressure and stroke can vary the result. It’s a never ending journey (at least to me) but don’t be discouraged when you find your preferences change. Even just by your technique growing it can change the result. For one thing, diamond or CBN is required for high vanadium steel if you want to finish finer than 3 micron. It saves you from frustration. Other than that, feel free to experiment and find your way.

Good luck and enjoy your stay. Last suggestion, check the stickies, it helps understanding deeper before and during the journey.

I have settled on DMT C - EEF, Spyderco UF rod and some cheap chinese diamond plate + diamond files for reprofiling (grunt work). Just because I like to do it portable (without desk/table). It may not be the perfect setup for simpler steel but I adapt. So how you do it and continue to do it in the long run also dictates the final favorites.

 

[hillrunner]

So, I'm looking at DMT. I like the idea of having diamond whetstones, so that I have the capability, right off the bat, to be able to sharpen the supersteels. I'm not concerned about messing up the surfaces of the stones; I tend to be overly cautious about stuff like that. And, of course, I'll practice on cheap knives to learn.

But I'm looking at the differences in the Duo-Sharp/Diamond Whetstone models vs. their Dia-Sharp. DMT says the Duo-Sharp/Diamond Whetstone models have an interrupted surface that has recessed holes that are designed to collect the swarf, while the Dia-Sharp model is an uninterrupted surface. Having no experience, I'm wondering which to go with. The ones with the continuous surface (DiaSharp) are a bit more ($199 at Sharpeningsupplies.com for a kit that includes 4 stones, Coarse through Extra Fine), while the DuoSharp is $149 for 2, dual-sided stones, plus a bench stone holder.

Any consensus? Which do you prefer? Do you find that the tip of the knife has the tendency to hang up in the holes?

 

[hillrunner]

I'm leaning towards the continuous surface of the Dia-Sharp stones.

These stones are electro-bonded, correct?