Getting started on big blades: differential 1075-1085 or 1095 thru tempe??

V

Vulcanite

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Jan 16, 2009
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Trying to get started finally making big chopping blades. I want a springy blade that will not shatter or break from impact w/ a hard log AND that has an edge hard enough to not roll, but also will not chip. For that matter, I would prefer the knife not to chip, I mean large chips, even if it hits a brick or something, but that is still resistant to rolling.


I hear that 1075, I think, was one of the easiest blades to heat treat w/ just like a torch, ann oil quench and an oven. I guess w/ this type of spring steel one can make a differential temper easily w/ a simple propane torch and an oil quench.


OR:
Maybe I could just do a full heat and quench on 1095 and make a through temper like the scopion bows guy. That would take a little more equipment, but not much...

What do you think?

Thx

Also, is the NJ steel baron the way to go for plate stock?

Thx
 
My first choice would be 5160, full quench with a differential temper.
 
is 5160 a spring steel? Can you make big knives or even swords out of it? I'll look through the taked thread again for info on that steel.

When you say full quench, you mean that you put fire on the edge half of the blade, but when you quench it, you dip the whole blade in rather than just the edge that was heated like when you make a hammon line w/ a katana?
 
Looked around a little more in the tacked thread on steel (rosetta stone one) and it I found this by kevin cashen:

"...So let me see, alloys that are really simple and have around .80% carbon and manganese to help in hardening… perhaps 1070, 1075, 1080, 1084. Hmmm, yes they seem to fit the bill!

5160 is hypoeutectoid and relies on chromium just to be able to reach 62 HRC. It is hard to make a bad knife out of it but it is also hard to make a really great knife out of it without very special attentions, indeed it excels in mediocrity in the hands of a beginner.

And then we have the old favorite on the list of beginners steels, O-1. Why is it believed to be so good for beginners? Because you can quench it in anything cooler than an oven or forge and expect to see some gains in hardness, but the soak time and precise temperature requirements in dealing with all the alloying present make it so the beginner is only getting a fraction of the steels potential at over 3 times the price!

With all of its proeutectoid carbon wandering around with no guidance to keep it out of mischief, and its significantly lower Mn content 1095 is not too much better than O-1 for a beginner. It will challenge your quench speed abilities as well as your heating skills.

Lowest price- 1070, 1075, 1080, 1084
Easiest accuracy and time requirements in heating- 1070, 1075, 1080, 1084
Hardenability in any decent quenchant matched to is cooling needs- 1070, 1075, 1080, 1084
Easy to temper for excellent edge holding or high toughness- 1070, 1075, 1080, 1084
Easy to anneal by simple heating and cooling or full lamellar via insulative methods- 1070, 1075, 1080, 1084
Easy to grind, file, drill or forge-1070, 1075, 1080, 1084
Readily available most anywhere- 1070, 1075, 1080, 1084

So what may be some of the best steels for a beginner to start with, hmm let’s see… perhaps 1070, 1075, 1080, 1084. ..."

So, what are one of the other of these four best at? And what are some tempering/HT formulas?

Tx
 
Generally a full quench means hardening the whole blade. A differential temper is reheating the blade differently along the spine than the edge, typically by placing the edge in water and heating the spine with a torch. The edge (really the whole blade) is tempered in an oven to the desired temperature/hardness, then the edge is protected in water while the spine is softened with a torch.

1075-1084 info can be found on Kevin Cashen's web site.
 
More reading is showing that This Kevin guy seems to Favor 1080 or 1084 as being the most easy to do for amatures w/ simple equipment. Plus its cheap and it comes in all types of thincknesses and sides I guess.
 
Lol. "this Kevin guy" is one of the most brilliant metallurgists I've ever read. It's just funny to see him referred to as "this guy." He's an ABS MS and is on the ABS board of directors.

Have you ever seen the movie Armageddon, where the scientists are all talking and the military guy butts in. One of the scientists says "this guy is pretty much the smartest guy on the planet, you need listen to him.". Picking steel is kind of like that with Kevin Cashen. Read "Working the Three Steels" over and over until it sinks in.
 
Vulcanite said:
More reading is showing that This Kevin guy seems to Favor 1080 or 1084 as being the most easy to do for amatures w/ simple equipment. Plus its cheap and it comes in all types of thincknesses and sides I guess.
Click to expand...

:D I was cracking up when I read this! That Kevin guy knows his stuff, lol! I actually seek out his information as he is the man when it comes to heat treat knowledge and more.

I'd get some 1084 from NJSteelBaron, you can't go wrong with the 1084. It is probably the easiest steel to work with before heat treat, the easiest to heat treat and to top it off it is super high quality material. The 1084 has a fine grain and gets very sharp, I really like it.
 
Well, I do think 5160 is a good steel for a beginner. It's fairly forgiving even if your heat treat is a little off, and makes a very good big chopper or sword. A big plus for beginners too, it does fine with plain ole canola oil. Not to take away from Daniel's recommendation about 1084, it's a beautiful steel.
 
I used to praise 5160 for its ability to take a beating and ease of heat treatment. Once my heats got more accurate and I began using quench specific oil, I found I could only take it so far. I still like 5160 but feel I can get more out of 1070-1084. 1095 is growing on me but I still haven't gotten completely comfortable with it.

I would go with 1080-1084 for a hard use chopper. Fully quenched and differentially tempered.
 
David Stifle said:
Rick, that do you mean when you say you could only take it so far?
Click to expand...
I couldn't get the edge retention I wanted at thinner cross-sections. It was tough but sacrificed strength. At best I was hitting 60-61HRC during the quench. I found that with 1070-1084, I could get a tough blade that also held a great edge, without having to resort to thicker bevels.
 
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Rick Marchand said:
I couldn't get the edge retention I wanted at thinner cross-sections. It was tough but sacrificed strength. At best I was hitting 60-61HRC during the quench. I found that with 1070-1084, I could get a tough blade that also held a great edge, without having to resort to thicker bevels.
Click to expand...


That is what I am talking about. I want a heavy chopper that can take a 15-20 degree edge that can hold up to chopping, in wood at least.


Mr Rick, what is your process? Torch the edge, full quench (in what oil?), than a series of cycles in the oven? Thx
 
NJ Steel baron only has 1075 in broad thick plates not 1080/84... Anyone know a source for 1080 or 84 plate?
 
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me2 said:
Generally a full quench means hardening the whole blade. A differential temper is reheating the blade differently along the spine than the edge, typically by placing the edge in water and heating the spine with a torch. The edge (really the whole blade) is tempered in an oven to the desired temperature/hardness, then the edge is protected in water while the spine is softened with a torch.

1075-1084 info can be found on Kevin Cashen's web site.
Click to expand...

I didn't see this post before. So basically you heat the steel up in a forge or a really hot oven till it de-magnitizes or whatever, you quench the whole thing is oil or whatever, then you anneal the spine while keeping the edge in water w/ a simple propane torch? Thx
 
Aldo's 1084FG is a great steel. Please don't get me wrong, Vulcanite... I think 5160 is a very good steel for hard use blades.

I fully quench my blades to get as much martensite conversion as I can and use tempering(both full and differential) to dial in the toughness. I like to use a kiln but would be happy with an open forge for 1075-84. These steels need a fast quench. Some folks use brine for 1075 but I find that my Houghton Quench K(comparable to Parks 50) does a great job with less emotional stress.:) I want my knives to be springy, not bendy. I value strength and resilience. If you need a cheater bar to flex your knife enough to deform/break it, just use the bar for your task and spare the knife:p Seriously though, with regard to lateral flex... I want as much energy as possible transfered through that blade and into the task. Of course, I don't want the knife to break but if it bends before I can get the job done, that's no good to me, either. I figure with regard to "hard use blades"(such a broad term), if I make a knife that I can't break with my bare hands, anything past that is gravy.

Everything is a compromise. Busting bricks, prying, digging, etc... are not knife tasks. Can you make a knife to withstand some of these jobs? I think so... but it will also lose "knife" qualities in the process. Expecting the edge to hold up against brick is not reasonable(there are design alternatives to that, btw;)). I have seen the "extreme" testing sites and think that unless the maker is marketing their knives as being able to do all these things, there is little point to them other than entertainment/shock value. There is an "Extreme Knife Challenge" brewing in W&SS, right now and the makers/users realize that this is an over-the-edge blatent knife abuse extravaganza. We are having fun and seeing how stoopid we can get. Maybe some folks will see value beyond entertainment and that's fine..... we just love knives and a good challenge!
 
Nonmagnetic is called the Currie point, and is 1414* F. Per his website, Mr. Cashen recommends 1500* F as the temp to hit when heat treating 1084. Therefore, you need to go a bit past nonmagnetic.

I will let someone else explain temperatures of the canola quench and tempering times. I'm interested as well because I want to start messing with 1084 a bit.
 
I have had better results with 5160 for big stuff than anything else I have tried. It holds up very well in thin cross sections and will take a major beating where other steels will chip out. It may not stay sharp quite as long as some of the others but it holds a pretty fair edge. My best results have been full quenched after a 10 min soak at 1525, twice tempered at 350 and then draw the spine back with a torch to a tough spring temper.
Darcy:)
 
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