ghurkas in afganistan?

Originally posted by Town Sergeant
We had one officer who was assigned to a tricked out Remington bolt action, the rest of us had these neat-o Garands. They were all black, had (IIRC) glass bedded barrels, nice recoil pads, and (again IIRC) Williams Gun Sight Co. sights installed. I had never fired a Garand before, and I soon learned that mine was a tack driver! It was truly a joy to shoot from sandbags or an improvised rest. Made for a really effective addition to the .38 revolvers and 18" bead-sighted shotguns that we carried back then. :)
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I had a couple of uncles who served in WW II that swore the old Garand was the best and most accurate military rifle ever made.
And I have talked with other WW II Vets who have said the same thing.

Weren't they made in the Springfield Armory?
 
I like the Garand.

I love my mint condition SAFN Venezuelan 7x57. If I could just find the missing scope mount side rail... Hardly any recoil, and with 175 grain ball bullet was used by W.D.M. "Karamoja" Bell to kill oodles and oodles of elephants.
 
I have bountiful respect for the soldiers from Nepal who have served Britain with such distinction across the globe. I think one retired British Army officer (whose name eludes my aged memory) who said it best when reflecting on Gorkhas in British service: "Bravest of the brave, never had a country more loyal friends than you".

Andrew Limsk
 
Yvsa,
I do believe that ours were Springfield Armory but I wouldn't want to swear to it - too many weapons ago! :)

As I posted earlier, ours had black stocks and metal, bedded barrels, nice recoil pads,and trick sights...they had been done up by some combat shop that our Firearms "El-Tee" knew someone at.

I remember shooting one day with one of our Firearms Instructors who was using a brand new .223 carbine that I had just purchased. He was (and is :p ) 10 times a better shot than I ever was (and am :p ), but I shot rings around him that day with that M1.

An awesome battle rifle. :eek:
 
Matt, thanks the info. I suspect that you are correct since 80 preceeds 85. Perhaps SA 80 is a prototype designation.

Wal, the 30-06’s better penetrative performance has little to do with its larger diameter compared to 6.5 mm. Military 139 gr 6.5 mm has better sectional density than than 150 gr 30-06. I suspect the much higher velocity of the 30-06 round that give it the advantage.

The Valmet from Finland is an excellent AK variant that was made in .223. It came with a peep sight, glow in the dark night sights, and a neat folding stock. This is the gun that the Israel copied for their Galil. China exported a .223 AK to the North American market. These were not very reliable apparently. Their 7.62 x 39 version was absolutely reliable.

Things have changed a lot since when the studies the full auto studies were done. The studies are based on two armies fighting. Today’s the infantryman is just as likely to have to pick off a shooter from a crowd of demonstrators in say Northern Ireland. A beaten zone from a full auto or burst fire weapon might take out a few by standers as well. Considering the amount of peace keeping duty Canadian troops do it makes a lot of sense to equip our rifles with the ELCAN sight. Even our LMG’s have optical sights, which I think is carrying things a bit too far.

The SPIW (Special purpose individual weapon) program of the 60’s was to incorporate burst fire concepts. It fired small flechette round with high cycle rate so that a burst of 3 would be on its way before the recoil affected the shooter. The aim was to have a useful (shotgun like) pattern out to 300 yards. The individual rounds for notoriously inaccurate but. The flechette’s knock down capability was also questionable.

I will go out on a limb here. There is no way you can make an M1 Garand as accurate as you can make a M14. The .308 is a more accurate round than 30-06, the gas piston is further away from the muzzle on the M14, receiver is shorter, etc. While ballistics are similar the M14 is easier to shoot (less powder to generate recoil with .308 vs 30-06).

Before about 1990 we could own fully automatic weapons converted to fire semi automatically only here in Canada. A terrible shooting in Montreal where the shooter used a high capacity Mini 14 changed that for us. The military vesions (with full auto diabled) of the M14, Galil, AK, G3, L85, MG34, MG 42, etc. were all once available to us.

Will
 
If I had a dollar I'd bet it that if the UK leads a "risky" Afghan mission there will be Gorkhas involved.
 
Arghhhhh... Leave a thread for a while, and you guys are talking about Garands! I went through basic training with one, learned at an early age all about M1 thumb. Sure enjoyed seeing them in the movie Saving Private Ryan.

When you are talking about accuracy, I read an article a while ago where Mike Venturino went up to Hank Williams Jr.'s Montana ranch and both were consistently hitting 2/3 sized bison targets at 964 yards. Even Hank's wife was able to consistently do it. Mike thought that the reason for the accuracy was (among many things) black powder has a much more consistent burn rate than smokeless powder, giving more consistent shots. Plus, the projectiles (we call them sausages) are heavy, perhaps being less affected by the wind.

Sorry, when you start talking old guns, I just get all excited. I understand that different types of rifles are for different tasks, but when someone says Sharps, my heart just goes pitter-patter. Love them old ones! Just like khukuries!
 
Venturino mentioned the standoff at Dobe Walls in that article, or one in the next issue. There were a handful of trappers pinned down in an abandoned ranchito, with nothing but the remnants of the walls left. They were up against a large party of (I believe) Cheyenne, who were outranged by the Sharps .50s carried by the trappers, but kept coming back. Finally, they withdrew to a hilltop to figure out another approach, and a single shot from the walls took down a warrior on horseback. It was later paced off at 1,050 yds. The Cheyenne decided this was just too expensive, and left. The trappers had fewer than a dozen rounds left, and another charge would have finished them. The Sharps could easily hold the title of the "gun that won the West", because like the Khukuri, it was an everyday tool that did well in battle when necessary. A great, great uncle on my Dad's side was one of the Masonic negotiators called in to help with the incident of the wagon train massacre in Utah. He rode into Salt Lake with four mountain men, and a .50-70 Sharps across his knees. Asked where he normally carried it, he answered "Everywhere". My "everywhere" gun is a five-shot S&W...times have changed.
 
Comment from retired 10GR officer re: Gurkhas in Bin Laden Land

"I believe it was just one platoon attached to
a tank regiment and that they have been back in UK for some time now, so I
doubt they will be deployed to Afghanistan. For some reason the Government
will only use the Royal Marines, Parachute Regt and SAS in offensive roles.
The rest of the infantry is used only for peace-keeping, and is getting
pretty pissed off about it."
 
If they don't use them they are not making the best of the resources available. The Gorkhas are supremely qualified for duty in mountainous terrain. Most Royal Marines (hat's off to some tough customers) have never even seen a mountain unless they have had training in the Alps.
 
Originally posted by Bill Martino
If they don't use them they are not making the best of the resources available. The Gorkhas are supremely qualified for duty in mountainous terrain. Most Royal Marines (hat's off to some tough customers) have never even seen a mountain unless they have had training in the Alps.
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Gorkhas have fought in Afghanistan on a number of previous occasions too.... :confused:

B.
 
Originally posted by Spectre
Yvsa,

In my initial post, I began mentioning the .50, then went back and removed before posting! :D

There was a fairly short period when cartridges firing black powder were used, to include such rounds as the .50-70, .45-70, .45 Colt and (IIRC) the .30-40 Krag. These arms had the benefit of hundreds of years or experience, metallic cartridge cases, and rifling, but were still much smaller than the .69+ bores of a hundred years before.

Yvsa, killing a buffalo at 1000 yards with one of those big 'ole rounds was possible. Hitting him- or, at least, the one you were aiming at- may have been another. I recall one test the Army did a little before the turn of the century. It involved enormous circles drawn on the ground! Even then, the hit rate was (again, IIRC) less than 50%.Yvsa, killing a buffalo at 1000 yards with one of those big 'ole rounds was possible. Hitting him- or, at least, the one you were aiming at- may have been another. I recall one test the Army did a little before the turn of the century. It involved enormous circles drawn on the ground! Even then, the hit rate was (again, IIRC) less than 50%.
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Not everyone agrees with the accuracy of the old Sharps.;)
I once got to fire an old 44-40 Colt that belonged to a friend of mine.
His grandfather had left the old thumb buster to Bob as well as a couple of old Sharps. A pity about one of the Sharps is that someone once upon a time made it into a carbine by cutting off the barrel a goodly amount.:mad:
I doubt that it could have made consistent hits to a 1,000 yards, but have no doubt that the full barrelled rifle would have.
The other one was missing a part and for some reason Bob said they wouldn't interchange with one another. If so Bob could have had the choice of a rifle or a carbine.:)

Back to the 44-40.......
I was never so gunshy after shooting that old gun with a full load!!!!!!! Why you ask?!?!?!?!?!?
Well it's like this.... Some of the old ammo Bob had also had belonged to his grandfather. We're talking ammo that's maybe 50 years old, possibly older(?) I dunno....
All I know is that you would pull the hammer back, take aim, gently let your breath out and squeeze ever so gently............................ Then the old gun would do 1 of 3 things.
It would go BANG!!!!! or it would go CLICK.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................BANG!!!!!
Or it would go CLICK!!!!!!....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Nothing.
Now you're at a quandry... What do you do? Do you continue to wait until hell freezes over for the old cartridge to fire ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,Or do you pull the hammer back exposing a new round to the hammer????????????

It took me a good year to totally get out of flinching after that episode.
I finally told Bob that if we weren't gonna shoot the newer ammo I wasn't shooting the old gun anymore.
I do have to say I was impressed with the old Colt. It had had the best of care and was in excellent shape and shot that way for proof.

I was once told that all the cartridges that had a hyphen in between the numbers designated a black powder round. So therefore the 32-20, 30-30, 44-40, 45-70 and so on were all black powder loads originally.

My b-i-l has a 45-70 Carbine that I will continue to refuse to shoot.:)
 
I hate misfires, especially the larger calibre -- like 8 inches and larger. There's nothing that gives one more food for thought than an enexpended misfire rolling around the floor of a gun turret on a tin can.
 
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