Girafe Bone... what´s your opinion?

[BrB]

That´s a lot of information, some have passionate opinions on the matter, others tend to be softer, but I think I kind of understand it better now, thank you all for your imputs. I will keep up the debate now directing it towards some points I would like to adress:

1) lots of you guys consider GB to be a fake substitute to fossil ivory. I have never seen it being sold that way, not in a knife and not by supliers. On the other hand the dyes and colours strongly sugest they try to copy the much more noble material, something that really bothers the most traditional collectors.

2) some people adress the fact it´s dyed bone, nothing more. Well 90% of the stag out there is also dyed in the most simple fashion: potasium permanganate or leather dye, etc. Yet it doesn´t get the same attention, mostly because those dyes bring the stag closer to what it should look like. Now some of the GB dyes are made in such bad taste, making it look SO bad, that I must agree to this in some extend. But on the other hand some have exactly the same efect that other dyes (maybe just a deeper effect) have over stag. To this point of view, some have expressed that dyes are not really an issue so I will stick to the bad taste hipotesys. Just to add some more wood to the fire... I have seen dyed fossil ivory as well. Looks much better than the GB, but it´s not as good as natural coloured fossil ivory.

3) cracks... now this is kind of new. I´ve never seen a major crack in GB but I just might haven´t seen too many knives with this material then. What we usualy see are superficial cracks caused by heat. They cook the bone to get those there and when the dye comes they show up and the bone looks old. Never seen one of those develop to a frecture but again... I just may haven´t seen enough so if you have news of this happening please throw them in here.

4) Nature of the animal... well since I have seen a fossil walrus penis used as a sword handle nothing more will shock me. Seriously I never thought that the nature of the animal would be such an important matter. I guess that, in that sense, the most important aspect was if the animal was rare or common and if the material looks good. Maybe I should pay more attention to that in the future.

5) it´s bone, simple bone... well.. it is, but in fact nobody ever tried to pass it as something else. As far as being bone, it´s much better than cow bone IMHO. I have seen other bones that look like crap and along with fossil whale bones, GB are the best... when talking about bones.

6) Price... I guess that we all agree tha it´s overpriced and the diference should not be so great that you would not chosse it for the real good fossil ivory. However in places like Brazil and other countries small diferences turn bigger due to currency exchange rates and that might be a problem sometimes cause some guys have to buy an year worth of supplies during the Blade Show and keep that money there.

My conclusion is that some people considers GB what it is: dyed bone, while others tend to take it as a fake attempt of something else. Both are right to some extend, and the responsability falls over the dyes choice to make it look like fossil ivory. Another thing is that, despite of the whole confusion of it´s definition, its darn pretty to most people. I myself like it, and do not mistake it for ivory... I really consider it something else. Maybe for commercial issues I might have to change my mind after all.

 

[RogerP]

For those that like the stuff, or even don't mind it - would any of you put giraffe bone in your top three choices for handle material? Top five?

For me, it would fall toward the bottom of my list of choices for natural handle materials, though ahead of oosic.

On the issue of cracks - that is one of the things I like about giraffe bone - those surface cracks add a pleasing visual texture, IMHO, and give the material a unique look.

On the issue of dyes - I vastly prefer a uniform colour, preferably in the cream / beige / tan / medium brown spectrum. Multicolours don't do it for me at all. Nor do blues, greens, pinks, orange and such. Though I once had a battleship grey-dyed giraffe bone knife that I quite liked the look of.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Joss]

I like GB better than nondescript woods. Yes, ironwood or walnut can be extraordinary, but I have seen top quality knives with IW slabs that were totally uninteresting. This applies even more to some other woods like osage, etc.

But the issue is always one of saving on the material. If one is going to make a $1,500 knife, why put GB on it, when slabs of some ivory or stag would only add a small % on price? I feel strongly that the knife on the other thread should have had I scales (even though I actually like the look of this specific GB).

On the other hand, many new makers sell their first knives at a very high loss, because they've not yet established themselves in collectors' minds. In such a case, there are really no reason to use ivory.

 

[BrB]

I feel strongly that the knife on the other thread should have had I scales (even though I actually like the look of this specific GB).

On the other hand, many new makers sell their first knives at a very high loss, because they've not yet established themselves in collectors' minds. In such a case, there are really no reason to use ivory.

Very intersting points Joss, thank you very much.

Those are the reasons I started this thread. I have been looking at all the dislike for GB in the past few months and I have been talking to the Brazilian makers about it. Somehow I believe (IMO) that some of the guys are right at the point where they will leap from this "loss" period to the point where they would really like to start earning serious money from their knives. One issue though is that they make this transaction slowly so that the prices are not deeply affected causing trouble with costumers. The issue of going into higher end materials is in there too, right into the mix of doubts that a man has at this point of his career. One more thing to consider is that they will be getting the JS stamp pretty soon.

I also agree that this knife should have ivory instead of GB... but still it looks damn good

 

[ptgdvc]

Before and after photos, White Giraffe bone handle to Sambar Stag carver.

You be the judge. I don't think that it is a contest.

The bottom knife in the top photo was Roger's with Brown Giraffe bone.

 

[Stephen F]

Great piece Peter, but to me its still very subjective. The before piece you show could be ivory (its close in the pictures with colour cast etc), and I would still prefer the stag carver as I think its a better shape than the original design.

As I have said earlier, I think the real issue with Giraffe Bone is one of prejudice. Functionally it would be difficult to argue it is vastly inferior to ivory, stag, sheephorn, wood, infact many would argue it is superior to one or two.

For me, as far as a natural handle material on a working functional knife - give me sheephorn, I like the look, its warm, grippy in the wet, has great elasicity given its keratin base. A lot of people don't like it, but its slowly making its way into higher end knives and gaining acceptance therein(Fowler excepted in terms of prices and how long its been used). After sheephorn, give me a stag crown! On high end presentation pieces , what ever has the best combination of looks and value (both intrinsic and extrinisic).

So back to Giraffe Bone, why do I say prejudice? Well, as I said, it can't really be excluded on functional grounds, and people say that they actually like the look of it in some of its guises, but its not ivory, and alot of people won't even give it a look because of that! But is it really trying to be ivory? Why do people think of it as a poor substitute rather than a material in its own right - thats the bit I don't understand!

Why is ivory preferred above all else by many people? IMO, because its ivory - rare, even forbidden, in its legal form its ancient and finite - its romantic, and in many circles taboo, and for many, including myself (I think!), this increases its appeal. Giraffe Bone - well doesn't quite have the same ring to it, and isn't quite as valuable (except to a 3 legged giraffe!). When it first started being used it was its own worst enemy with all them damn silly colours, and a few sages went out of their way to malign it - which certainly didn't harm the stag prices for a while either.

The piece referred to in this thread is mine, probably worth less now than it was, but hey, do I regret buying it? Not one bit! The price paid would have been double at least if it had come from an MS with ivory - would it have been a better piece? Thats a difficult one, I think the Mastersmiths who could have made a much better piece (which would be very hard) would have charged a bit more than double!

Would I have got much more enjoyment out of it with ivory, not really, as I have filled a gap in my collection and purchased it as such. Would I buy a different piece with Giraffe Bone? - probably not, with an eye to resale you have to look at the potential market and diversify out the risk. A similar piece with ivory? - Yes!

Do I think giraffe bone is getting a bit of a rough ride? - Yes, and I include myself in the problem.

Now - Expensive Japanese style knives and sword with handles wrapped in string! - Discuss !

Stephen

 

[RogerP]

As I have said earlier, I think the real issue with Giraffe Bone is one of prejudice.

I have much the same impression, though I can't say I understand it. Even though I am no great fan of giraffe bone, I find the extreme, even vehement dislike that some have expressed over time to be somewhat perplexing.

Anecdote from the last Blade show (Stephen, you may have been there at the time):

Well known dealer with a well known dislike for giraffe bone is expressing his well publicized views on the subject in the presence of a maker who is showing some of his knives to a small group of slobbering collectors, including one GB-handled piece. Maker to dealer, in exasperated tone of voice:" What is up with you, did a herd of rampaging giraffes destroy your childhood village, or what?! "

Here's another look at the GB-handled knife from Peter's pics. My knife was more grey than brown in handle colour:

Roger

 

[Wulf]

Maker to dealer, in exasperated tone of voice:" What is up with you, did a herd of rampaging giraffes destroy your childhood village, or what?! "

Brillliant! What was the dealer's response?

Stephen, by the way, while I poke fun at giraffe bone once in a while, I really do think that Sfreddo you got is an absolutely exquisite knife, and I also think the giraffe bone looks fantastic on it.

 

[Stephen F]

Well known dealer with a well known dislike for giraffe bone is expressing his well publicized views on the subject in the presence of a maker who is showing some of his knives to a small group of slobbering collectors, including one GB-handled piece. Maker to dealer, in exasperated tone of voice:" What is up with you, did a herd of rampaging giraffes destroy your childhood village, or what?! "
Roger

I remember it well, one of the many highlights!

Stephen

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

As I have said earlier, I think the real issue with Giraffe Bone is one of prejudice.

prejudice n. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

Nope. I think I have all the facts. See my previous list.
There are many materials I would use before giraffe bone. Just a preference, not a prejudice. I like the look of it in its white state, it looks just like polished moose/elk antler, which is much tougher.

Giraffe bone was a bit of marketing genius perpetrated by South Africans who have unlimited access to such things at a time where Stag was drying up and Ivory was pricing itself out of the market. Much of it is poorly stabilized and dyed and the dye will literally rub off on your hands! It isn't cheap either. Premium grade wood is usually cheaper. Some makers latched onto giraffe bone and even UPCHARGED for it over premium wood.

Blue or Green dyed maple is a great handle material too, just not for me.
I once saw a Fitch knife with a green dyed maple handle and almost vomited because it looked so out of place--the same way the colored giraffe bone looks to me. Somehow manipulated to be something it isnt.

In a way, giraffe bone bucks tradition, and tradition is one reason we collect these things. They are a bridge to the past and representative of a time where many things in life were handmade, with care.

 

[Stephen F]

Giraffe bone is a poor subsitute.

Anthony - A poor substitute for what? Why?

This is the bit I don't undertand, please explain to me what it is substituting, and why it is not just a "different" material, and your factual reference for why it is poorer.

Stephen

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

It is generally dyed to look like something it isn't, like Mammoth ivory that gained its hues from centuries under ground.

I can tolerate it in pure white form, but there are better materials (Elk, moose) in my opinion if that is the look you like.

It is pretty clear we have a difference of opinion and thats OK.

Thats why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors

Let me ask you a question...if it weren't less expensive than mammoth, walrus, hippo would you use it on a knife? Especialy a higher end knife?

 

[Stephen F]

Anthony, if you re-read one of my posts above I too have a preference for Mammoth Ivory (all others are either banned or require certification -read hassle - for cross border transactions) above most other materials for high end knives, if the other fittings and embellishment "fit". This "fit" decision will be influenced by size, design and aesthetics - sometimes you just need dark handle materials, and I have a real weakness for stag carvers and black wood

This does not mean I think all other materials are "bad", just not my first choice, , I think GB is good material (this is where we may disagree - and there is absolutely no problem with that ), as good as many others, whlist a few others have written it off as being faux ivory, though I am unaware of anyone marketing it as such.

Over pricing is another thing I don't follow, a quick internet and ebay search turned up Ivory scales in the $180 - $350 range, Stage scales in the $40- $90 range, and giraffe bone in the $50 - $80 range.

I love this thread, it gives a real insight into what collectors are looking for - quality, desirability and uniqueness. There is with everything a sliding scale for all those factors, this one collector, and some others, just happen to think giraffe bone has a place in there.


Stephen

 

[Kohai999]

For me, as far as a natural handle material on a working functional knife - give me sheephorn, I like the look, its warm, grippy in the wet, has great elasicity given its keratin base. A lot of people don't like it, but its slowly making its way into higher end knives and gaining acceptance therein(Fowler excepted in terms of prices and how long its been used). After sheephorn, give me a stag crown! On high end presentation pieces , what ever has the best combination of looks and value (both intrinsic and extrinisic)

Now - Expensive Japanese style knives and sword with handles wrapped in string! - Discuss !

Stephen

Stephen,

1. I would like sheephorn if there was more consistency in the visual appearance, and I also had very bad luck with a stabilized piece of Dall sheephorn early in my collecting. It cracked all the way through to the tang. I simply have a very hard time getting excited about this material, although I completely agree with your points about it for a using knife. Sometimes when hard use is considered, aesthetics may have to take a back seat.

2. Crown stag is a horrible choice of knife handles IMHO. UNLESS the maker takes pains to make an equally organic style of blade, the knives inevitably look like a match of a fine shirt with a pair of houndstooth trousers and Birkenstocks. It just doesn't work together. I know that you prefer a historical look in many of the knives that you collect, but my approach is different. I think that the makers of the day were using readily available materials to make functional knives, and while I respect that, it leaves me flat for modern pieces. I have Flayderman's Bowie book, and have looked at it at great length, and will be the first to admit that I just don't care for the stuff. Give me a Loveless style chute knife or subhilt any day, and I find that to be the aesthetic that works.

3. If you are talking about simply using ito (string) on the blade, overall, I am in agreement with you on Japanese blades. However, I am quite the traditionalist when it comes to this medium, and the combination of a wood core, that you cannot see, with a same'(rayskin) overwrap, and then braided silk wrapping over that represents some of the most complex and evolved functional handles in history, with an aesthetic that is unmistakeable and truly useable, as well as being extremely comfortable and ergonomic.

It is also truly variable as to maintenance. Ito goes bad, it can be re-wrapped, same' needs changing, not a problem. Even to core, should it require it, can be replaced, without damage to the entire piece. The skills that it takes to do all of this are being learned by more and more people all the time, and learning these skills bring the maker more "tools for the toolbox".

As far as giraffe bone handles, I have a Buck damascus dagger with GB scales, and one of the cracks goes through all the way to the tang. It is also dyed a pinkish red. This will be one of the knives that I have for sale on my table at the OKCA, priced to move. It has no place in my collection.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[kyboy41]

I think putting giraffe bone slabs on knives that are strictly for collections vs those that are used as hunting knives are two seperate issues. For more years than I care to remember I have used knives with a number of different handle materials on them including micarta, wood, stag, and giraffe bone. Stag is my favorite with giraffe bone being second. The primary reason I prefer these two materials especially over micarta and wood is, at least in my case, when I am field dressing a deer my hands and the knife are covered in blood I don't want a material that will slip and cut me. The stag and the gb handles tend to become stickier with the blood on them and there is a much less chance of the knife slipping. Micarta and wood tend to become a lot more slippery the wetter they get, at least in my hands, and I really don't want a slippery knife when I am up to my elbows in a cavity cutting things loose. I have been using a knife of my design with stag slabs that George Herron made for me at least 25 years ago that has field dressed a lot of deer. The slabs, other than being stained for all the use, are as good as the day he put them on the knife. I have also used a knife with giraffe bone and it too has the tacky feel when wet with blood. I have had no problems as far as cracking or checking with the gb slabs even though the knife has been carried and used under various conditions.
I have also used knives with micarta and wood slabs. They became very slippery while field dressing deer and I have not used them again.

I have a number of knives in my collection that will never be used which have various handle materials such as wood, stag, big horn sheep, oosic, and ivory. In my opinion they are all much more desireable than giraffe bone as far as collectible knives go, but for a using knife, giraffe bone has worked well for me. I still like my Herron stag handled knife the best though.

 

[RogerP]

Interesting practical feedback kyboy41 - thanks.

Roger

 

[SpyderJon]

I find this all really interesting. I have one knife with GB on it. It was the first knife I ever bought at a show, and I liked it because I thought the variations in the color were pretty. I would never sell it, though, because the no good POS who sold me the knife passed it off as a sole authorship piece when it was really a kit. I still keep it, though as a reminder to be more careful.

As a handle material, though I think its okay. I've seen Mammoth bone before and I didn't think any of the pieces I saw looked even remotely like the GB I saw- at least not up close. For my personal preferences in handle material, I prefer Micarta over everything else, but then I have mostly users. For collectors, I'd probably like sheephorn or Stag over everything else though.

a good read nonetheless.

-Anthony

 

[Stumpy]

I don't know,beauty is in the eye of the beholder.I only have one knife with it and I like it.I have never thought of it as imitation ivory.It's Giraffe bone.

 

[Marcel54]

I had the opportunity to investigate Stephen's giraffe bone handled Sfreddo in the flesh yesterday. Aside all the discussion about what it should or should not be I can say one thing. That is one amazing knife, with an excellent fit and finish and those slabs (which by the way look great) complement the knife extremely well. :thumbup:

Stephen brought along some of his collection (Fisk, Dunn, Dean and the likes :thumbup: ) and we both agreed that the Sfreddo hold his own against those other knives in almost every aspect.

I have to say one final thing: I want to be Stephen or at least I want his collection

Marcel

 

[Mark Williams]

I love the stuff. I cant justify the price for it, but if left in it's natural color I think it's beautiful.

I have recently used a piece for the first time. The hard portion of the bone was nearly 1/2" thick.

It takes on a nice creamy color that appeals to me.