Glad I don't live in the UK!

[matt_w]

And the biggest joke is the fact that Parliament never intended to require locking bladed pocket knives at all. If the Courts had read Hansards in the very first case brought before them over a locking folding pocket knife, they would have seen that these common 'tools' were not something they wanted to see people brought to account over.

If that had happened all those people 'caught' carrying folders at the train stations would have been sent on their way and would not now be facing criminal convictions.

Here is what the Judge at the Court of Appeal had to say regarding the legislation.

Application for leave to appeal to the House of Lords refused, but point of general public importance certified as follows:
'That the article 'a folding pocket knife' as mentioned in section 139(2) Criminal Justice Act 1988 as being an exemption subject to subsection (3) to the offence made by section 139(1) means a knife that has a blade that folds, whether or not it (the blade) is capable of being opened and locked into an open position and equally capable of being folded once the mechanism had been operated to unlock the blade.'

This was prompted in part by the following said by Mr John Patten, Minister for State at the Home Office.

.... In our discussions with the manufacturers with whom we have consulted widely in the interests of industry and employment in Sheffield, it emerged that we could catch those vicious sliding knives, while at the same time exempting ordinary pocket knives that lock into the open position, which is what the amendment seeks to do. Folding, locking pocket knives, which I am advised that many people carry because they are safer to use than the non-locking variety, will be excepted from the general offence, which is right, but the exception will apply only to folding pocket knives with a sharpened blade of 3 in or less. ..... We wish to keep within the law those people who carry ordinary pocket knives. When an officer finds a person in possession of a pocket knife in a public place he has only to check the length of the blade and ensure that the knife folds. If the knife does not fulfil those criteria, the possessor will have to show a good reason for having the knife with him."

Not only do we suffer from stupid laws, we also suffer from stupid lawyers, judges and juries!

 

[Mr_Yarrow]

All true Matt, but doesnt help the fact that no-one read it does it The joys of UK knife legistlation

On a more general note, can I ask what experience people are speaking from when they say a knife cant be used for defence? This is NOT an insult to people, Im honestly interested in where this opinion comes from. To explain...I have studied a few martial arts on and off and the only experience I have from them is that a weapon is mostly a liability in an aggressive situation. This may have been because I learnt japanese defensive arts such as Jitsu and Aikido, but the clear idea has formed in my head that id rather have an armed person come at me than an unarmed one (by armed I mean knife or club style weapon) as this defines hand positions, limits attack methods and telegraphs attacks more easily than a fist. OR are we talking defending yourself in the fact the possible attacker is detered from their originally intended course of action due to the knife you are holding and as such they are also risking injury?

Look forward to hearing peoples thought...just thinking, hope I havenmt breached a topic of conversation rule talking about this, if so, sorry.

Rgds

 

[matt_w]

All true Matt, but doesnt help the fact that no-one read it does it The joys of UK knife legistlation

On a more general note, can I ask what experience people are speaking from when they say a knife cant be used for defence? This is NOT an insult to people, Im honestly interested in where this opinion comes from. To explain...I have studied a few martial arts on and off and the only experience I have from them is that a weapon is mostly a liability in an aggressive situation. This may have been because I learnt japanese defensive arts such as Jitsu and Aikido, but the clear idea has formed in my head that id rather have an armed person come at me than an unarmed one (by armed I mean knife or club style weapon) as this defines hand positions, limits attack methods and telegraphs attacks more easily than a fist. OR are we talking defending yourself in the fact the possible attacker is detered from their originally intended course of action due to the knife you are holding and as such they are also risking injury?

Look forward to hearing peoples thought...just thinking, hope I havenmt breached a topic of conversation rule talking about this, if so, sorry.

Rgds

I bet the knifemakers who were consulted felt cheated after that first lock knife conviction.

 

[matt_w]

I think that when I have heard people say it they mean that a knife is not as well suited to defence as other weapons such as batons are because they are short and the damage they cause difficult to control plus the fact that it can take people a long time to know that they have been stabbed or cut, during which time they have continued to be a threat.

Of course the often quoted statement that says 'a knife to knife fight is a very rare thing' kind of suggests that knives can deter people from wanting to engage in a knife to knife altercation. Maybe that fact makes them a very good defensive choice if you expect to face a knifer?

 

[ArchieCS]

The attitude towards knives in the UK gets on my nerves, as I'm a UK citizen who carries a knife pretty much all the time, and feel I've got to be surrupstitious about it so I don't get arrested. I've tried to compromise on not carrying a deadly-looking weapon by carrying a Kershaw Scallion (blade just over 2"), but laws about locking knives are just silly - since I've started using lockers I'm a bit shy of my non-locking Swiss Army knife, always thinking the blade might flip back on my fingers...

I don't think the idea of carrying a knife as an EDC tool really comes up much in UK ppl's minds, at least not in the media. Usually when problems like irresponsable idiots carrying combat knives on trains is highlighted, all knife carriers (even those with legitimate reasons), are condemned by association.

And the UK IS totally a nanny-state btw...

 

[matt_w]

The attitude towards knives in the UK gets on my nerves, as I'm a UK citizen who carries a knife pretty much all the time, and feel I've got to be surrupstitious about it so I don't get arrested. I've tried to compromise on not carrying a deadly-looking weapon by carrying a Kershaw Scallion (blade just over 2"), but laws about locking knives are just silly - since I've started using lockers I'm a bit shy of my non-locking Swiss Army knife, always thinking the blade might flip back on my fingers...

I don't think the idea of carrying a knife as an EDC tool really comes up much in UK ppl's minds, at least not in the media. Usually when problems like irresponsable idiots carrying combat knives on trains is highlighted, all knife carriers (even those with legitimate reasons), are condemned by association.

And the UK IS totally a nanny-state btw...

According to the Court of Appealand Hansards, lock knives under 3 inches ARE NOT illegal and you do not need a 'good reason' to carry one in public. However until some hot shot barrister manages to get a ruling to over rule the previous caselaw the Police and the CPS will ride roughshod over the Will of Parliament.

What we need in the UK is a concerted effort by all interested parties to push for Parliament to clarify the law or to get a ruling one way or another. The Court of Appeal noted that there had not been any public outcry over the lock knife issue - this would need to change to stand any chance of allowing Parliaments will to be recognised.

 

[beezaur]

Forgive my ignorance, but can you even own something like a Camillus BK7 in the UK? I mean, provided that you had no actual need for it, and just wanted one because you liked it.

Scott

 

[fett tracking]

this thread reminds me of v for vendetta.

EDIT

i just realized that "v" carried a bunch of knives. so this is funny to me in more ways than 1.

 

[matt_w]

Forgive my ignorance, but can you even own something like a Camillus BK7 in the UK? I mean, provided that you had no actual need for it, and just wanted one because you liked it.

Scott

Here in the UK you can own any kind of knife you like. There are restrictions about importing, manufacturing and selling of auto knives and balisongs but thats about it.

In public places you need to demonstrate a good reason for having a knife about your person. Self defence is not automatically a good reason and is generally frowned upon.