Glaser and other Self Defense Ammo

[Sid Post]

Yeah, cause everyone likes to get shot with FMJs cause it's fun and doesn't hurt

FMJ's get the job done when put in the right places though, again police shooting reports and statistics suggest there are better options.

Speculation and unfounded statements by random people aren't something I'm going to rely on in a deadly force encounter. I will continue to rely on documented reliable statistics and police reports. Slack jawed store clerks that subscribed to a random newsstand gun rag and think they know it all don't captivate me either.

There is credible information from reputable sources to consider if you are serious but, not everyone is interested in factual resources.

 

[Sid Post]

One wonders if full metal jackets are all THAT bad (esp .45ACP) or if it's just a marketing myth to sell more expensive ammo.

Two holes and twice the wound channel sound better than one hole and a short channel; and if you clip the spine on the way out, all the better.

Your question has been studied extensively. One resource to consider is the selection data when the US military went from the 1911 to the M9. You can also find numerous resources in the Law Enforcement community supporting why they up-gunned from 9mm and moved to advanced hollow points. The FBI shooting in Miami is one that comes to mind and resulted in significant changes in the Law Enforcement agencies.

For the 45ACP, you also need to consider the date it was put into service and why. The old wheelgun 45 Colts and new 1911 45ACP's didn't have the benefit of modern bullets and powders. Add huge infrastructure costs stopping significant changes and you have a partial answer. I don't know any LEO that carries "hardball" when in uniform nor I am aware of any statistical evidence that suggests 45 hardball is a good choice from today's ammunition choices. The local "cop shops" I have been to all sell cheap hardball in various calibers for "practice only".

If you are worried about barrier penetration (i.e. windshield glass, sheet metal doors, etc.) you need more specific ammunition in general then most general merchandise stores will carry.

 

[russianpolander]

I carry 147 gr Hydra Shoks in a couple and Black Talons in one 9 mm but most of my carry guns have Speer Gold Dots also. In my .380 Beretta I have Cor-Bon 90 grain JHP, as I heard they were the best .380 round out there. In general Cor-Bon is right up there in every caliber.

 

[shunsui]

Your question has been studied extensively.

True, but I haven't been overwhelmed by the conclusions of those studies.

In fact, I notice they keep having to do more studies.

I think we all can agree that shot placement is better than approved ammo, recommended ammo, or magic bullets.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

Glaser is marketing junk ammo.

If it won't go through a little drywall, how is it supposed to go through enough bad guy to stop the threat?


Speer Gold Dots are generally a good, reliable, easy choice. In 9mm, 147 grain bullets are what you want.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

True, but I haven't been overwhelmed by the conclusions of those studies.

In fact, I notice they keep having to do more studies.

I think we all can agree that shot placement is better than approved ammo, recommended ammo, or magic bullets.

In smaller rounds, HPs can expand and create more wound channel. Bigger rounds like .45 ACP are a little more forgiving. Either way, a round passing through someone can hit someone else.... someone you don't want it to hit. That's reason enough to use HPs for SD.

 

[Sid Post]

I think we all can agree that shot placement is better...

A 22LR put in the right place will do the trick. Heck modern pellet guns have killed people too.

 

[M67]

FMJ's get the job done when put in the right places though, again police shooting reports and statistics suggest there are better options.

Speculation and unfounded statements by random people aren't something I'm going to rely on in a deadly force encounter. I will continue to rely on documented reliable statistics and police reports. Slack jawed store clerks that subscribed to a random newsstand gun rag and think they know it all don't captivate me either.

There is credible information from reputable sources to consider if you are serious but, not everyone is interested in factual resources.

You place in a lot of faith in police reports. Oddly enough, police can be some of the worst shots.

If someone has to be shot 12 times with a 9mm or a 380acp, does that mean the round is ineffective or that maybe the shooter is just a piss poor shot?

A 22LR put in the right place will do the trick. Heck modern pellet guns have killed people too.

And that's one of the points that need to be made. Shot placement is more important than caliber or type of ammo. That's why I said earlier that the best type of hollow point is the one that shoots the most accurate through your firearm. They'll all get the shot done but it's the person pulling the trigger to make sure that happens.

Also, for records and all, some modern pellet rifles have taken large animals in Africa. All about shot placement.

 

[lmalterna]

Just for me... there is a happy medium where precise shot placement is not going to happen. Get woken up by bright lights and a blaring horn at 03:00 and see if you can find the floor. Stress is a killer of any precision thought or movement. Training helps but EVERYONE is affected to some degree. My hollowpoints give me a "slightly" wider permanent wound channel and I will take any edge I can get.

My Glock loves HP. My 1911 is a little picky but, so far, no stoppages with XTP's so they are the ticket. I also like the Truncated Flat Point FMJ in .45 for guns that just do not like HPs.

Using airsoft gas powered pistols, I have been on a course in an old house set for demolition where there were mixes of shouting, at night, with a flashlight and people shoving you. You would be amazed at the affect. Engaging targets along the way was an eye opener. Tunnel vision sucks. I was lucky to have the chance at experiencing even such a small amoutn of stress training.

My Glock has a 33rnd magazine. My hallway has a 500 watt halogen floodlight and I will sit in the floor at my bedroom door and deny access to that hallway. I will not "clear" my home. When the police get there, they can clear the house. My job is to deny access to my family until the police get there.

I would be happy to have the 870 as well as the Glock but it takes more time to get and make it to the door. Getting to the door with SOMETHING & getting the light on are all I train. KISS.
Wife will call PD while I am in the door.

Bill

 

[Sid Post]

You place in a lot of faith in police reports. Oddly enough, police can be some of the worst shots.

Police like any segment of the population varies from good to bad when the sample size is large enough. Whether good shots or not, the facts of a shooting are what they are.

Instead of listening to some "know it all" at a gun store that just joined the NRA or subscribed to a gun rag, I try to find relevant facts to support my choices. You can dismiss non-military shooting studies and reports all you want but, where else will you find factual unbiased information?

Do you want to carry the 9mm hollow points that were used by two police officers to shoot a drunk motorcyclist? There where 17 rounds in his torso and he was going to die but, he didn't know that yet and continued to fight. Or, the drug crazed male who was fatally shot but, continued to beat an officer with a club until they both died?

This whole thread started with "Glaser safety slugs" and self defense. With this type of choice, you need to consider more then advertising in various gun rags and marketing campaigns. And, I think we both can agree not to place our "faith" in Barney Fife (sp?).

 

[M67]

Sid, so...you saying that I just listen to some "know it all" at a gun store so now I'm a "know it all"? Or.....? You kind of lost me.

If you read my original post, you'd read that I only have 1 Glaser round and that's just because it was free. I carry other hollow points.



In all the police reports you have read then, what do the police use and recommend? You seem to have a lot of info about reports and factual data but you've yet to state an opinion on a better hollow point or self protection round than a Glaser Powerball....

 

[Sid Post]

The way I see it, if you have to use it, the threat is going to get shot and it will still hurt like a SOB if he doesn't die from it.

Yeah, cause everyone likes to get shot with FMJs cause it's fun and doesn't hurt

You place in a lot of faith in police reports. Oddly enough, police can be some of the worst shots.

If someone has to be shot 12 times with a 9mm or a 380acp, does that mean the round is ineffective or that maybe the shooter is just a piss poor shot?

Modern hollow points are vastly superior to what was available a decade ago. Law Enforcement and Home Defense ammunition from the major domestic manufacturers will perform much better then similar ammunition from a decade ago or more ago when things like Glaser developed their niche in the marketplace.

Today we (the general public) have ballistic gel tests to provide realistic results that penetrate enough without over penetrating. We can also see the difference in naked gel versus leather or denim covered gel. While sheetrock and windshield glass ballistic gel studies are harder to find, they are in the public domain and are worth consideration too.

With the liability Police have with any shooting, their studies are a good public domain source to compare popular main stream firearm and ammunition choices without the bias seen in gun stores and magazines.

From your original post and others in this thread, it is clear you are presenting personal opinion. Whether you are a slacked jawed "know it all" behind the counter at a gun store or not is only something you and your customers can determine.

 

[orca8589]

Stay away from things like Glaser Safety Slugs. They may or may not work; there's a good possibility they won't penetrate far enough to incapacitate a bad guy.

This is just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth: I vote for Winchester Ranger SXT ammo (which is almost identical to the discontinued Black Talons) or Federal Hydra-Shok. The best advice is that if you want a handgun for home defense, have the best handgun/caliber combination you can shoot comfortably, find the load that works best in it and practice a lot - shot placement is everything.

I have an old Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum that's loaded with either Winchester Ranger SXT loads or Federal Hydra-Shoks. Many folks consider a Ruger Super Blackhawk a little large for home defense, but I can shoot mine at least as well as I can shoot a rifle, and my wife & son can handle it too.

A friend here is a LEO in Northern California, and his advice for home defense is a shotgun: preferably a 12 gauge; the huge diversity of load options allows you to handle just about any situation. Even an up-close shot with bird shot in a bad guy's center-of-mass will settle things pretty quickly, and you have quick follow-up shots ready. If 12 gauge is too much, then a smaller gauge (20 gauge or even .410) will work too.

Also, for records and all, some modern pellet rifles have taken large animals in Africa. All about shot placement.

Years ago I read an article about African calibers, and the writer (Capstick?) knew of an old farmer in one of the African countries who had a problem with an elephant coming into his little garden and ripping up the plants and presumably eating everything. One day the old farmer goes out with an antique .22 rimfire, with the intention of "scaring off" the beast, and he shot randomly at it. He somehow hit it in the ear, and the bullet managed to get far enough into the elephant's head that it died, right there on the spot. The problem was that this was either a full-grown elephant or close to it, and it collapsed down into a sitting position, and the old farmer couldn't move it. His family finally got the army to come drag the elephant off his property, and no one would believe he'd only shot it with a .22, until they cut it up and checked it out themselves.

Shot placement really is everything.

~Chris

 

[shunsui]

Came across this book review and I thought I'd share it as the people involved are somewhat famous in the area of self defense ammo. Dr. Martin L. Fackler is a retired Colonel in the US Army's Medical Corps, he was a battlefield surgeon, and was the head of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory for the US Army’s Medical Training Center, Letterman Institute. He reviews the book, Street Stoppers --The Latest Handgun Stopping Power Street Results, CO, Paladin Press, 1996, by Marshall and Sanow. Yeah, it's a little dated these days, but the review is pretty brutal and gives you a good idea what the real experts think of the magazine writers.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm

 

[M67]

Modern hollow points are vastly superior to what was available a decade ago. Law Enforcement and Home Defense ammunition from the major domestic manufacturers will perform much better then similar ammunition from a decade ago or more ago when things like Glaser developed their niche in the marketplace.

Today we (the general public) have ballistic gel tests to provide realistic results that penetrate enough without over penetrating. We can also see the difference in naked gel versus leather or denim covered gel. While sheetrock and windshield glass ballistic gel studies are harder to find, they are in the public domain and are worth consideration too.

With the liability Police have with any shooting, their studies are a good public domain source to compare popular main stream firearm and ammunition choices without the bias seen in gun stores and magazines.

From your original post and others in this thread, it is clear you are presenting personal opinion. Whether you are a slacked jawed "know it all" behind the counter at a gun store or not is only something you and your customers can determine.

So....is your vote for Hornady, Winchester, Federal, S&B, Magtech....?

 

[Sid Post]

A friend here is a LEO in Northern California, and his advice for home defense is a shotgun: preferably a 12 gauge; the huge diversity of load options allows you to handle just about any situation. Even an up-close shot with bird shot in a bad guy's center-of-mass will settle things pretty quickly, and you have quick follow-up shots ready. If 12 gauge is too much, then a smaller gauge (20 gauge or even .410) will work too.

Contrary to popular error'net myth, birdshot is a terrible choice for a Home Defense shotgun. You want something that will penetrate deep enough to stop hostilities, not aggravate the situation. At a distance of ~3feet, birdshot will shred flesh but, not enough to cease hostilities - especially if the bad guy is in an altered state of mind.

After spending many hours on a test range running load tests through my Gunsite shotgun, I found the VangComp choke worked very well with 00 and 000 Buckshot and didn't have a brand preference. The Buckshot sizes also penetrated deeply after encountering "normal" household materials and clothing. Reduced recoil Buckshot also allowed faster follow up shots.

Factory chokes vary a lot in my experience so, you can't rely on the marking on the barrel or tube. ALWAYS pattern your shotgun whether you are busting clays at the range or loading buckshot for behind a bedroom door.

Slugs in smaller gauges work well too. For the recoil shy, the Browning BPS 410 Self Defense model is a good choice when loaded with slugs.

 

[Sid Post]

So....is your vote for Hornady, Winchester, Federal, S&B, Magtech....?

I have used thousands of Hornady XTP's in my handgun reloads with consistently good results. For factory ammunition, I look for Federal first at any mass market point of sale. I shoot Lapua ammunition for rifles if it is available in my caliber and in stock. Lapua 22LR is also very good in my rimfires though, CCI Mini-Mags are generally what I find in stock and they work well for general utility purposes.

 

[orca8589]

Contrary to popular error'net myth, birdshot is a terrible choice for a Home Defense shotgun. You want something that will penetrate deep enough to stop hostilities, not aggravate the situation. At a distance of ~3feet, birdshot will shred flesh but, not enough to cease hostilities - especially if the bad guy is in an altered state of mind.

I agree, and I should have clarified that his point was to use heavier loads like buckshot or slugs, but that birdshot was okay if nothing else was on hand. He did mention that if a smaller shotgun caliber was used like .410, then slugs were best.

~Chris