God and Paradoxes

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Bill Marsh

Joined
Mar 26, 2002
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OK, new thread. Don't want to keep bringing up stuff on the same thread with Tookie. Would like to let that one be dead, burned and scattered.

cliff355 said:
I think the parade is what attracted their attention and then the claims about being a divign being led to the arrest warrant.
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I meant the parade remark as a joke.

cliff355 said:
Some time ago I had a discussion with a Rabbi who said that claiming to be God/related to God violates a major Jewish rule.
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Yep. I does! Jesus violated MANY orthodox, even not so orthodox Hebraic rules. He was also a real radical! Take an in-depth look at the Sermon on the Mount. Rad!

cliff355 said:
An interesting observation of this Rabbi was that Jesus apparently never wrote anything down. He assembled a following of twelve persons usually described as illiterates, and was referred to as "Rabbi" himself, implying a high level of literacy. Yet, all the writings are handed down by these fishermen, etc. and Jesus did not put pen to paper. When I think about it, this is almost harder to swallow than the resurrection.
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And MUCH of what was written down was written many years after Jesus left. A few of the disciples were educated, Luke was a physician and wrote in Greek, but most were not educated.

And most of the New Testament was written by Paul who never knew Jesus.

But if you get a letter from a loved one (God) does it matter who the mailman is? Yeah, I know that many people feel that the Bible was manipulated by the clergy. Myabe so, maybe not. I try to accept it as not. Look deeper. We all need some core belief -- some strength that is unchanging.

I realize that I am opening myslef up to criticism here and that is OK. I am no evangelist. I am not trying to convert anyone.

What I find fascinating is that the Bible is full of so many paradoxes. Totally irreconcilable statements. Like the one I mentioned about Free Will and God /Predestination.

This could mean that these statements ARE reconcilable, but not on this earthly plane. Maybe the next level up. Maybe when we get there, it will make better sense.

BTW ALL religions have these paradoxical statements. One of the things that fascinate me about this study
 
Free will is a hard one to reconcile with any religion that beleives in a good that is all powerfull all knowing and all good (paradoxes to keep us agnostics up at night). Free will does provide an interesting solution to the problem of evil (if god is all powerful all knowing and all good how can he/she/it alow evil to exist in the world) my favorite answer is that not having free will would be a greater evil than anything we can do with it.
 
great start to a new thread...

I would not be interested in a god I could fully comprehend.

presuppositions count for a lot. If you staryt with an assumption that anything not verifiable by "scientific" measurment cannot be true, that will limit what you can believe in.

I have no trouble believeing in a God who can alter what appear to us as inviolable "rules" of physics.

I have no trouble accepting the Divinity and true humanity of Christ,his ressurection, or the accurate transmission of his words by the holy Spirit to his Apostles long after his ascension.

BTW, Christ did appear to Paul, and i think the Bible implies clearly that paul was taught the Gospel directly by Christ himself.

If you start from the place of accepting a transcendat God, these things are not at all hard to swallow.

If you start from the place that unless we can see, touch, or fully understand it it can't be, these thingsa are impossible to accept.

Everybody has presuppositions.

Are they reasonable? What is our reason for having the ones we do?

Take care,

Tom
 
Bill, have you looked into the missing "Q-Document"?

Paradoxes are a product of language. Look into Zeno's Paradox as an example.

Grob, did you hear about the dyslexic insomiac agnostic that stayed up all night wondering if there realy was a dog.

Referencing another post in the Cantina,
On the internet, no one knows you're a god.
 
Personaly I think that belief in god is non-rational. I do not think it can be proven either way, despite the efforts of philosophers on both sides of the theist/atheist divide, so ultimatly it comes down to a matter of faith.
 
Yup, lots of paradoxes.:rolleyes: :mad:

A couple... ;)

Cain went into the land of Nod where he took a wife.
If Adam and Eve were the first and only people and Cain, Able and Seth were their only offspring then who were the people of the land of Nod? :confused:

Melchizedek, the high priest and king of Salem who blessed Abraham. Melchizedek was said to be without mother, without father, was not born and did not die.
Just who in or out of this world was Melchizedek? :confused:

I also like the part where Ezekiel saw and described a flying saucer or UFO.
There are also those who claim that the pillar of fire by night and the pillar of cloud by day was produced by a UFO that guided the Israelites for the 40 years they were in exile but won't get into that.;) :rolleyes: :D

Yvsa, who used to be quite the Bible scholar.:p
 
Grob said:
Free will is a hard one to reconcile with any religion that beleives in a good that is all powerfull all knowing and all good (paradoxes to keep us agnostics up at night). Free will does provide an interesting solution to the problem of evil (if god is all powerful all knowing and all good how can he/she/it alow evil to exist in the world) my favorite answer is that not having free will would be a greater evil than anything we can do with it.
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If there were no evil, one could not choose good. Making choices is how we learn and grow. To live without opposition is stagnation. There must be oppostion in all things that we might learn to choose the right not because we are forced to, or have no choice , but because we want to. Here lies the road to true happiness. Sin never was happiness.
Terry
 
I agee entirly the freedom to choose is greater than any evil we can choose. Another interesting arguement is that much good can come from evil/suffering as most good results in somehow fighting evil or relieving the suffering of others.
 
Sounds as if you have found the road already. I never feel better than when I am in service to others.
Terry
 
I usually don't discuss religion since it can be a pretty touchy subject. My personal thought is that religion is a matter between a man and his god, and the 'flavour' doesn't really matter, so long as he can pursue his religion without causing harm to others.

If he calls god Allah and refrains from alcohol and borrowing money, that's fine. If he calls god Yahweh and doesn't mix meat and dairy on the table, that's fine. If he feels he needs to confess his sins on a regular basis and avoid sex before marriage, that's fine. If he believes that cessation of desire leads to salvation, that's fine. If he believes there is no god, well, that's fine too.
 
Very ecuminical Kazeryu if everyone thought the way you do the world would be a much better place.
 
Grob said:
Very ecuminical Kazeryu if everyone thought the way you do the world would be a much better place.
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Haya, it is true. :thumbup:

Of course to me the entire Bible is myth just like the stories of my people are myth to the non-Cherokee.
As in all things I strongly suspect the truth lays somewhere in the middle.
I have no problems with folks of other persuasions as long as they don't try to convert me.
It's hard for most folks to fathom that some folks don't believe the Bible is a Holy book.

As one ndn prayer starts out, "Grandfather up until this day I have done the best that I can..."
Some days our best is better than other days, sometimes it's not as good but it all averages out in the end methinks.
 
I dont believe the entire bible is a myth. The old testament is a mixture of myths and real history, many of the events are correlated by ancient chinese records, etc...
One of the biggest events was a massive volcanoe that obliterated the island of Thera in 1628 BC. this was the source of the "plagues of Egypt" story.
It was bad, trillions of tons of hot ash, sulfur, dust, etc,, thrown into the atmosphere with the force of a thousand A-bombs.

What we were talking about originally was the message that Jesus taught versus the magical or miraculous events written in the new testament.
Munk felt that Jesus' willing acceptance of death was an important part of his message.
I do not. I suspect that His arrest and execution were highly undramatic and unnoticed by the masses.

In all of your life experience, how have people died? Was it ever magical and noble and inspiring?
Reality never changes.

The message, the teachings, those were different and special and that is what I care about.
No social classes, no social distinctions, everyone is your brother or sister.
Open commensality, no clergy. no church.
 
Munk felt that Jesus' willing acceptance of death was an important part of his message.
I do not. I suspect that His arrest and execution were highly undramatic and unnoticed by the masses.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Danny

Danny, All Jesus had to say was; "No, I'm not the son of God." and he would have lived. He had more than one chance to say this, and refused. The masses be hanged. The man rode into Town fulfilling much ancient prophecy and willingly was excruciatingly killed. That cannot be removed from his teachings. In fact, it is the final point of his life and teachings.

I do not have the faith of my wife or many of our Christian friends here. The intellectual attempt to make Jesus a wise wandering fellow, however, removing his willing sacrafise, I will not let go unchallenged.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Studies of small children who have 'died' or had near death experiences, and been brought back, be it by Science or 'miracle' have much in common. One repeated experience is the "Nice Man" who talked to them. Usually this "Nice Man" does nothing particularly 'spectacular". He might visit with them on a park bench, for instance. Over and over again this emerges in the children's accounting of what happened. Remember, today children do not talk to strange men in parks. They are taught not to.
They instinctively trust this 'Nice Man."

Interesting stuff.
When I was a small child, I had a dream. In the dream, amongst many other things I will not share here, a "Nice Man" brought me to a place.
I have not been raised in a religious household.
I strongly suspect this man is Jesus. What that means, exactly, is over my head, but if I die, and a "Nice Man" says, "Come with me," I'm going, whether Danny in Japan thinks Jesus was the Son of God or not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I find it fascinating that Jesus comforted his desciples with the knowledge that when he left, this would make way for the Comforter.

I personally believe there is a Comforter, what Christians call the Holy Spirit. I call this the Great Heart.
Now, If I were a madman, or a fraud, Jesus- and I did not want to be gainsayed later, I would not make up an idea like the Holy Ghost because if He's not coming after my death, but has always been 'around', then I'm a liar. Where was this Great Heart before Jesus's death?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I pray. I actually think there is a God, a personal one, that is, One whe hears me and others. How and in what manner the Universe is laid out, or the particulars of His existence, and Jesus, is beyond me.

A point I've often argued with the more traditional in my world is "None get to the Father but through the Son."

Frankly, I don't limit God or the Son. It is men who've decided that means Christianity is the only way. This is my opinion and I do not mean to be offensive. I think Jesus finds a way. I think the Great Heart is real. If they got that right, how much else is right?

I read the Bible in many ways. In some, like a typical intellectual, I see parable. But I also believe it is a mistake not to believe literally. What does that mean to me? Fervantly- as if one's life depended upon it.
Very seriously.

I think because it boils down to this; This is really happening. Life has meaning. Treat yourself and others with love.


munk
 
In fact, it is the final point of his life and teachings.
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So, the point of his life was the fulfillment of prophecy? Like when Jean dixon foretold of the JFK killing? Does this mean Nostradamus was also the son of God?
The bible itself tells us to avoid prophesy, witchcraft and magic, decrying such things as evil and unGodly. The final point? Not in my opinion. How would that make us change into good people? all one has to do, literally, is buy one of Bruiselee's absolutions and you're all fixed up for heaven...

attempt to make Jesus a wise wandering fellow, however, removing his willing sacrifice,
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Im not saying that he wasnt God made human. (I dont think I could ever define what he was, nor should anyone try) Im not saying he was just a peacenik. The fact is, however, that his teachings ARE very similar to the idealized version of communism. (Not the soviet kind, the real kind)

If a willing sacrifice is proof of Godliness, then why dont we worship Socrates?
He died under almost identical circumstances. In fact, socrates was given a choice of exile or death and he chose death. In fact, he administered his own death, drinking hemlock.

Munk, I never said Jesus was not the son of God. You assumed that I did.
That's not fair to me, now, is it?

My point is that Jesus, ostensibly, was killed because of his teachings. He was changing the whole world with his message.
And yet, the conventional religion that bears his name does not really convey that message. We only see bits and pieces of it.

Here is what I came to conclude after a year of study on this subject:
A life NOT spent doing charity is wasted. Charity is our only real business.

This is really happening. Life has meaning. Treat yourself and others with love.
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I think we ended up in the same place somehow.
 
So, the point of his life was the fulfillment of prophecy? Like when Jean dixon foretold of the JFK killing? Does this mean Nostradamus was also the son of God?
>>>>>>> DAnny in japan

I have been saying all along you cannot remove the teachings of his life from his intentional death. How you bring Jean Dixon in is an affair for your own concience-

>> Munk felt that Jesus' willing acceptance of death was an important part of his message.
I do not. I suspect that His arrest and execution were highly undramatic and unnoticed by the masses.>>

This is what you said in this thread.

I did not say the point of Jesus Life was fullfillment of prophecy, though that is also intrinsic and cannot be removed from it. I said to remove the significance of his intentional entrance to torture and death was not right, as you'd done in your original post in the other thread, and above.

I do apologize for assuming you did not believe Jesus was the son of God- you are correct, you never said that. You said the resurrection was a myth invented by others.

Frankly Danny, I don't know what to say about his ressurection.
If there is an afterlife, than even that is true. I would much rather listen to those of faith who could speak of this better than I.

I'm just an atheist who gave up one day, realizing it was hopeless, that I did believe in God.

take care,
munk
 
I believe in God, too, Munk.
More than that, I feel God.

That's one of the reasons I attacked my own religion with a scientific desire to know the truth as far as it could be known.
I have an unquenching desire to know God and my search has led me to this place in understanding. This is not the end of the road.
I dont want anyone to lose their faith.
I dont want to lose mine, I just dont want soft, mushy faith based on a belief in something I only loosely understand.

Let me suggest a few books for stimulation and possible change in understanding.

John Dominic Crosson, Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography (San Francisco: HarperCollins, 1994), 95.

(Crosson wrote a series of Scholarly studies of Jesus that ought to be looked at)

and

Return to Sodom and Gomorrah
Charles R. Pellegrino, Robert J. Masters, November 1995
this book analyzes the old testament in terms of history and fact. Very good book.
 
The tone of this thread is so elevated, maybe I should keep quiet! :o


;)


Danny said something about bits and pieces. That is very true. Bits and pieces is all of Christ we ever see in any of his people.

I must say, I am sad to see so little of Him in the mirror of my life.

Munk? Great post, and I love your zeal. My point of discussion would be concerning Christ's place as an exclusive or non exclusive savior. I wouldn't know how to seperate or comprehend his words apart from the understanding that he is THE way, the truth, and the life, and that no one comes to the father but by him . I suppose one must posit that either he meant that in some metaphoric or metaphysical way, or that those words are incorrectly attributed to him by the compilers of the Bible. Either choice seems devastating to me...

One of my favorite proverbs has become "By long forbearance is a prince persuaded, and a soft tounge breaketh a bone."

Seldom has argumentation resulted in the changing of minds, at least in my experience, esp. on such important and intensly personal matters. And as I consider myself to be among princes in this place, I hope to hold my tounge better from now on...

So instead of further argumentation, I would like to just tell you all about my second favorite verse in the Bible.

Isaiah 49:16 "Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands."

(I don't think i have posted this before. My apologies if i have.)

When thinking about this, I considered what the pusposes of engraving might be. I came up with two answers; identification, and decoration.

For those of you familiar with the Bible, remember the garments of the High priest? 12 stones with the names of the tribes engraved upon them, as well as two stones with 6 tribes each. Those garments were for "Glory and for beauty". The Bible, in Malachi, speaks of God's people as being jewels, or ornaments that he is making up for himself. maybe not a paradox, but amazing anyway, that God takes those who were violently opposed to himself, and ugly in his sight, and makes them the very objects of his love,and a means of revealing his Glory.

The High priest laid his hands on the scape goat, and the sacrificial lamb, as the representative of all the people. (the tribes' names were all there on him!) The sins of the whole nation were thus symbolically transfered to another, which, as a picture, were driven out on the one hand, and killed on the other.

Now Christ as the final high priest (after the order of Melchizedek, by the way!) is seated in heavenly places. His people are seated with him. Their names are upon his hands.

Christ's life makes a lot more sense to me, if you understand that he did many things vicariously, as did the scape goat and the sacrificial lamb. Why was he, who did no sin, baptised in a baptism of repentance? because his people needed a perfect repentance to be saved. Why did he die? To offer himself as an atonement for the sins of the whole world, the people of God scattered all over the earth. (See John chapter 11, towards the end of the chapter i think.) The names of his people were there with him.

The permanence of engraving is a great illustration also. How can engraving be removed? Only by removing the substance of the material the engraving has been put into. "No one can snatch them out of my hand."

Christ's people are the workmanship of God, created to do good works, the bits and pieces Danny spoke of, the good deeds that show the Character of Christ, the love for self and others that Munk spoke of. The good works, however, are the fruit, never the root, of their salvation.

Christ is not only the teacher of the gospel, he IS the gospel. he is much more than the example of good deeds, he is the source of them, and the producer of them as well.

There is so much more to say, but maybe this little bit of almost "stream of unconsciousness" will communicate something of value more than any wanna-be academic arguments I might offer.

BTW, re Melchizedek, one explanation among bible scholars is that he was a pre incarnate appearance of Christ. very mysterious though in its implications, to be sure. Some believe that ALL the Angel of the LORD references are to be understood that way.

My favorite verse?

"Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

Your friend,

Tom

ps glad I caught that! "friend" doesn't look too good without the "r" in it!

Btw I was typing as you guys were adding the stuff above...
 
the miraculous and supernatural beliefs concerning Jesus are beautiful, inspiring, comforting. Noone can deny that they have given value to our lives.
I just dont like the fact that people confuse what the point of Jesus' teachings were.
Was the point of his work:
A. dont worry, be happy
B. Get off your ass and feed those orphans

I think it was B.
 
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