Going to a knife show - Forget the airlines

edmoses: I'd agree with that. I don't see why they really need to "request" you not to lock your luggage while it's faster to have an X-Ray machine on every airport and have actually competetent techs that knows how to identify stuff inside the luggage.
But still that can't completely prevent thefts. If they really want to, they could've cut open the soft cover luggages. Of course if you check your briefcase or a hard case as your luggage, that would be too time consuming, but there's also plenty of soft cover luggage that a thief wouldn't bother with a tamper-proof lock by just cutting it open, find anything valuable and take it away, but that's the least of my concerns here.
I just don't see a reason that people shouldn't put a lock on their luggage. There are plenty of things they could implement that would solve the problem, and frankly I believe that there are things outside the airport that they could do to help.
 
Well I knew it would come to this sooner or later. Now it must be told. Back in April, on the way to the Oregon knife show, a pair of blunt ended nose hair trimming scissors were dicovered in my toilet kit. I was told I would have to leave them in order to be allowed to board. I had no problem with that. I asked for a receipt, and was told that one would not be forthcoming. "we don't have time" was the response. I replied that I had paid $30. for those and was not well disposed to giving them up,after all they were not contraband and as such could not be confiscated. "you may leave them and board or take them and leave." Foolishly I replied, "Jesus, I must look like a terrorist to someone" What did I say that for? State police,airport security, national guard, on me like ugly on an ape. My bags were pulled of the plane and I was escorted from the premises. "You won't be flying today Mr. Smith" mind you I was never at any time out of order, merely saying the word "terrorist" was enough to bounce me off the flight. I returned the following morning for another try, the same screener spots me from across the room and gives the high-sign and its on again, wand up my ass, hat off, shoes all the rest. my carry on was thoroughly searched, I was determined to remain silent and just get it the hell over with. This as well proved to be a poor strategy. The screener displeased with my laconic demeanor, calls over the supervisor, "Is there a problem?" asks the supervisor. The screener answers," This person does not appear happy." That is when I decided I had had enough.I informed them that I had been inconvenienced to the tune of many $$$ in lost sales and time and did not see how or why I should be expected to have a sense of humor about it, now, were they going to let me fly or not? "we're just trying to do our jobs Mr. Smith" I was told, and finally allowed to proceed. What's the point here? IMHO this is all bullshit, feelgood meassures that disguise the real truth: Your life is indefensible against someone who's willing to trade their own for yours. I was actually more than a little insulted as a knife maker that they thought nose hair trimming scissors were the best I could do. If I were going for the conceal, It would be titanium, ceramics and carbon fiber all the way, how dare they play me cheap!
 
How do you like that? Morons running the system, and whether you like it or not, I don't look at Bush highly. He may have done well dealing with the tragedy, but his methods for everything that comes after is utter BS.
It's sad to see that even people with blunt nose hair trimmers gets escort off the premise, that scanner must have something up his colon somewhere.
 
He may have done well dealing with the tragedy, but his methods for everything that comes after is utter BS.

Cut the guy some slack. He has more people working for him then you have in Canada and most of those are the same incompetent buttwipes that were acquired by the previous administration. You can't just fire them all can you?

But, the way we are going none of this really matters. The airlines will be dead or nationalized long before anyone can come up with the overhaul the system needs. I for one am not going to miss any of them. Service and maintenance have been going steadilly downhill since the 1970s. The terrorist thing just accelerated the process.

n2s
 
n2s: I don't expect much of you to agree with me. But for me to elaborate and counter your comments, that would run into my own rules...
I really hate discussing politics. just like one cartoonist have said, politics gets people very serious, and they can't seem to relax. I don't want to turn this thread into a thread war about Bush Jr.
 
you know something? I'm not done yet. That incident at the airport really angered me for many reasons, not the least of which is that my being bounced off, cost me a days delay and most certainly, lost sales. Thought of in another way, I was summarily fined for inappropriate language without a hearing or a trial under the sketchiest of circumstances. At the time of the incident I said to the state officer who was escorting me out,"there is a posted list in plain sight of items you may not bring onto the aircraft or carry on your person. Where is this list of things one must not say, just so I'll know?"His reply was that it should be "common sense". Well friends, there are a great many things that should be "common sense"that are written into law anyway. Just so we know. When laws are vague, and one is never sure when or how he'll cross the line into illegality is when the real paranoia begins.
 
Mr. Smith, it's just a fine, correct? Not a criminal charge?
If you felt like it you can try to take them to civil court. Without obvious list of "words" that one must not utter, they should be able to charge you that. Besides what you've said is not threatening, I don't see why they should bounce you off and fine you.
It'd help if you got a lawyer friend...
It's funny that Mr. Orwell was a anti-communist, and he wrote 1984 as a supposedly "anti-communist" piece. It's ironic that it's so damn applicable to the so called free world.
 
calyth,

You would be out quite a bit of money if you had to fight fines with lawsuits. The courts are hardly a practical solution. Not to mention you have better have big pockets since the airline will do just about all that can be done to bury you in legal process.

n2s
 
Originally posted by Benjamin Liu
Maybe spread dirty underwear and socks around your bag so they WILL have to handle them. :D

I just returned from the Philippines last month and had no problem transporting 15 sharp fixed blades with lengths >18" in checked baggage. I made sure that they were tightly wrapped and taped, and covered in dank dirty clothes... surprised my bag didn't set off any biological weapons detectors... anyway, when the customs agent at JFK asked what I had in my luggage, I said,"clothing, books, CD's, toiletries, cutlery, blah, blah, blah." worked ok, and I wasn't lying.
 
I work as a Supervisor for the TSA. So of course i will put a different slant on all of this. First of the TSA is new and is still testing certain policy's and procedures to figgure out what the best common sence security measures will be permanant. First i think you will se randon screening at the gates go away. Second i think items allowed as carry on items will change a bit. But being able to carry a knife with a 3 inch blade in you carry on are unfortunatly over.

Ive read all the complaints and wisecracks about security screeners but i do feel that having a screening force that are all Americans with clean records and fairly inteligent is a good step toward making things run smoother

Now as for the whining about locks on checked bags i think there is a fairly easy to understand answer for it. Before 9/11 very few checked bags were screened for explosives, Now all checked bags will be screened for traces of explosives, if a bag fails an initial screening or is selected for additional screening by the airline, it will be sent through a machine similar to a CAT scan. This machine does all of the work and checks for densities similar to explosives and explosive components. In SOME airports these machines are not in public areas, and if the computer says to check the bag...the bag is going to be checked. In some airports you will be there to give them a key to unlock the bag, but in those airport where screening happens behind the scenes the lock would be cut.

Hopefully a balance can be found to make traveling by air as easy and safe as possible
 
I work as a Supervisor for the TSA. So of course i will put a different slant on all of this. First of the TSA is new and is still testing certain policy's and procedures to figgure out what the best common sence security measures will be permanant. First i think you will se randon screening at the gates go away. Second i think items allowed as carry on items will change a bit. But being able to carry a knife with a 3 inch blade in you carry on are unfortunatly over.

Ive read all the complaints and wisecracks about security screeners but i do feel that having a screening force that are all Americans with clean records and fairly inteligent is a good step toward making things run smoother

Now as for the whining about locks on checked bags i think there is a fairly easy to understand answer for it. Before 9/11 very few checked bags were screened for explosives, Now all checked bags will be screened for traces of explosives, if a bag fails an initial screening or is selected for additional screening by the airline, it will be sent through a machine similar to a CAT scan. This machine does all of the work and checks for densities similar to explosives and explosive components. In SOME airports these machines are not in public areas, and if the computer says to check the bag...the bag is going to be checked. In some airports you will be there to give them a key to unlock the bag, but in those airport where screening happens behind the scenes the lock would be cut.

Hopefully a balance can be found to make traveling by air as easy and safe as possible
 
P.S. to Mr Smith

Just so you know. The TSA wasnt in Boston in April and only started to take over security at airports near August. And Blunt nosed scissors have been allowed in carry on bags for some time.
 
For a common sense security measure, why not keep hostiles out of the country? Shortly after 9-11 our government let a group of arabs in to the country to attend flight school, for example. What about securing our borders? Instead you jerks in government restrict the rights of American Citizens and kiss up to scum like the Saudis.
 
In SOME airports these machines are not in public areas, and if the computer says to check the bag...the bag is going to be checked. In some airports you will be there to give them a key to unlock the bag, but in those airport where screening happens behind the scenes the lock would be cut.

If I hear you correctly, it sounds like we will be shutting down some airports, until they can be redesigned to perform proper security checks. Of course you could splurge for a new quality lock and have the keys waiting for the passenger at the destination airport curtesy desk. Hopefully, the harrassment is worth wild, and a few replacement locks can be spared, with those passengers receiving a set of matching handcuffs instead.

n2s
 
As far as I am concerned. I will not fly anywhere ever again, if these attempts at security can not be done in my presence. I will not allow some person of unknown moral standing to ransack my personal property without my being there to see the whole process. If this screening has to be done in secret without us there to insure security of our personal property, there is a problem!:grumpy: I do not take bullying lightly. This whole situation has allowed a new class of bully to arise. You will stand in line, you will do what you are told to do, you will shut your mouth and take any indignity we decide is needed for your security. If you question this or are the least bit uncooperative, you will be arrested, made a criminal. Screw that crap. I WILL DRIVE!!:grumpy: It is hard to feel any sympathy for the airlines financial woes, when they take their customers and put them through the wringer for the privalage of flying on their airlines. Airline service has gone downhill drastically since the 70s. Each decade has gotten worse. Now we have gone from apathetic impolite airline personel, to downrite abusive personel. I do not pay to be abused!
 
Sadly:( :( I think that all this crap is going to get worse--not better. Once we get into it with Iraq (which looks almost certain), we are likely to see more terrorist attacks on our soil, which will likely result in even more Draconian measures.:rolleyes:
 
Rant on.

I will never fly again, if this BS continues.
The morons in charge need to get it through their thick skulls, start profiling. If someone doesn't like it, TFB.
Ray Charles was searched, if this isn't a perfect example of stupidity, I don't know what is.

On a related note, America is not America any more. Until the citizens of this once fine country read the constistution, it's original ammendments and understand them, then force polititions to honestly live by them., we will continue on our way to big brother.

Rant off.
 
I work for a major US airline as a Ramp Agent
** Baggage Handler ** I would recommend the following
1- purchase GOOD QUALITY luggage THAT LOCKS
2- Be sure suitcase is UNLOCKED when checking in for your flights and so it can be inspected by security and AFTER it has been inspected LOCK IT.
3-The bags are then loaded onto carts and brought out to the aircraft to be loaded on board and when you arrive at your destination the same applies.There is NO time for bags to be searched or messed with,not only that but there are many other airport workers watching.
So, if you have GOOD QUALITY LUGGAGE that can withstand being stacked
on with other heavier or larger bags, your knife or knives SHOULD
make it to its destinations with no problems.
 
Luggage locks have never been for security. Never.

Samsonite has two keys, A and B. Those two keys will open almost all Samsonite suitcases ever made. There are very few luggage locks that can't be picked with a paperclip in two seconds or less.

Combination locks? Get serious. They'll yield to a common screwdriver.

And those cute little paddlelocks? Get outta here! A small wire cutter will cut them open.

So, why do luggage manufacturers put locks on suitcases? Simple: to prevent the suitcase from coming open accidentally in transit especially if the latch or zipper should catch on something. That's all the lock on your suitcase is supposed to do. It holds the latch down so that if the latch catches on something, it won't pull up allowing your suitcase to come open and spill its contents.

And it's a good thing too. Every day in America, people arrive back at their cars and find that they've locked the keys inside. And every day people wait an hour in the pouring rain for a locksmith to come and spend fifteen minutes opening the car and then charge them $100 for it. And Every day tired travelers arrive in hotels across the country and discover that they've lost their luggage keys. And every day hotels send up Porters who, in less time than the guest needs to express his embarasment for loosing his keys, unlock the suitcase and claim a five dollar tip.

You are not prohibited from taking your knives in your checked bags. Unfortunately, airport security isn't prohibited from breaking your bag lock and rummaging for valuables.

They never have been. If it's going on that plane along with two hundred civilian passengers, it is and always has been subject to search. Airports have, for years, used x-ray equipment, sniffing dogs, and even more sophisticated equipment to screen a small fraction of checked baggage. Anthing suspecious has to be opened.

In the past, this has been done mostly on international flights and mostly at just a few major airports.

Congress has now mandated 100% screening of all checked baggage out of all but the smallest airports. So, the opening of domestic checked baggage is going to become infinitely more common.

Of course, with this comes the problem of employee theft.

Airlines are now bar-coding checked luggage. They need to do this since the same security rules require them to match bags to passengers. And, if a passenger doesn't board, they must remove that passenger's bags from the plane. Airlines now track exactly which passengers are on the plane, exactly who's bags are on the plane, and approximately -- within a few feet -- where those bags are in the hold. So, if, as they're about to push off, the computer realizes that Mr. Bin Laden's suitcases are aboard, but Mr. Bin Laden himself never boarded, they can quickly go into the hold and locate those bags without much delay.
My guess is that they will very quickly bring that same system to bear on the theft problem. They will track exactly which employees handle a given bag, cetainly who opens it and searches it.

I just got back from a Christmas trip myself and on my ticket it says, "Baggage liability is limited to $2500 per passenger... Carrier is not responsible for money, jewlery, cameras, video and electronics equipment including computers, silverware, precious gems and metals, negotiable papers, securities, business documents, samples, commercial merchandise, works of art, antiques, collector's items, artifacts, manuscripts, furs, irreplacable books or publications, or similar items." I'm not going to mention the carrier because I think you'll find that all carriers have about the same limits.

By the way, British Airways lost a bag of mine last year, lost it completely. It happened to contain a W.D. Pease pocket knive worth in excess of $2500. They paid me $650 total, knife and everything, which is the per-passenger limit on international flights.

Anyway, valuable pocket knives certainly fall under one of those exemptions, collector's items, or work or art, or "similar item."

Certainly for custom makers and dealers, "samples, commercial merchandise," just about covers whatever you might be taking to a show.

These limits and exemptions are not, by the way, anything new. In fact, the $2500 limit is fairly new. It used to be something like $250. A good pair of shoes costs more than that.



My practical advice if you're going to travel with anything valuable in your luggage is to snap a few digital pictures showing the item in the bag as you pack it (maybe include your ticket with your confirmation code showing in the frame). Then, use a zip-tie, or some tape, or something that will give some evidence that your bag has been opened. If you find your seal broken when you arrive, take the bag directly to the airline baggage office and insist that their rep watch as you inventory your bag.



I've flown a few times on Alaska/Horizon with a gun in my checked baggage. You just declare it when you check in. They're cool about it. They give you a tag to put INSIDE the bag with the gun, but do NOT mark the outside of the bag. However, they do somehow track it because when you arrive, you will NOT find your bag on the chute. You'll have to go to the baggage office and sign for it.

Now that opening of domestic checked luggage is going to be common-place, now that security screening for boarding passengers and their carry-on baggage is becoming so troublesome and invasive, and now that airlines are strictly limiting carry-on baggage, I think we need to pressure the airlines to address the whole issue of valuable in checked baggage. It's not limited to just knives.

People are carrying more and more electronics and computers all the time. Theft of lap-top computers from the out-side of security screening x-ray machines is becoming very common. If you forget the pen in your pocket and the metal detector beeps, you can be delayed for several minutes as they run that wand thing all over you. Meanwhile, your brifecase and laptop are there for anyone to simply grab and take.

Jewlery is much the same. Who can wear an expensive watch aboard now? You have to take it off and the security checkpoint and run it through the x-ray leaving it vulerable just as the lap-top is. And women can't wear big earings aboard or any jewlery of a shall we say, "intimate" nature. Some of those piercings that people are sporting these days would be a bit embarasing to have to remove at the checkpoint.

And the jewlery issue extends to men too. I like to wear a french-cuffed shirt and cufflinks. (I always say that if a man wants to pierce something, he should pierce what God intended him to pierce: his shirt cuffs.) But, I can't wear them aboard anymore. It's to much hassle at security and the risk of theft of an expensive pair of cufflinks it to great. I also like to carry a nice pocket knife. In many cases, a $2500+ W.D. Pease, for example, the knife is as much a form of jewlery for men than anything. Other men like to sport expensive tie bars or money clips or tennis bracelets or chains or rings.

One might suggest that we pack our jews in our carry-on baggage. But, aside from the real risk of theft, there's the potential for having to have your carry-on bag opened and the contents spead out in broad public view. The man now has to stand there while the guard holds up with $5000 and $10,000 watches for everyone to see thus making the man a potential target for a mugging later or even just for having that bag snatched when he's momentarily distracted looking for his driver's license for the 42nd time today.

And, of course, legal pocket knives are a big issue. Even if yours isn't a $2500+ W.D. Pease, even a decent pocket knife is worth at least $50 these days. It's not hard and it's not jewlery to get up to $150. Their small, unmarked, easily stolen, and pawn shops love 'em.

For years airlines have dealt with guns being toted by hunters. But those same folks often bring knives, often hundreds of dollars worth, along too.

So, I think we all need to pressure the airlines to come up with some solution to this problem.
 
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