Good enough to start hand sanding?

[HSC ///]

Sorry for the tangent, but you should really make some more vids, Harbeer, that was very nicely done and cool to see you're methods and tools


~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (Some older vids of some of the older knives I made)

thanks, there are many videos already and I'm not sure what I could add to the mix...
Also they are time consuming and frankly my video hasn't exactly gone viral

Is that the z-wear? Nice design!

. yes, thanks, I'm making six of them, finally got the HT dialed in to 63 RC avg.

 

[Willie71]

thanks, there are many videos already and I'm not sure what I could add to the mix...
Also they are time consuming and frankly my video hasn't exactly gone viral

. yes, thanks, I'm making six of them, finally got the HT dialed in to 63 RC avg.

63 is a good starting point. I have one at 65, and it holds up. Doing a batch of 6 more. Very hard on grinding belts though.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Dustin, take a peek at my site just to see how I do it. FFG all the way! Also I don’t do any hand sanding. To 120g on one of my grinders then a 400 Cork & the full Scotchbrite range for final finish. Yes you can see some angled belt marks on my blades. Helps keep food from sticking ..Also Radius the Spine! The edges there do nothing except make hot spots for Chefs that like pinch grip.——— I like your design , learn from each blade finished what you can improve on the next!

 

[DustinY]

More advice please. Okay, so i went FFG on it, and ground the shoulder up more AND eliminated the plunes (i'll have to take the tang down) but i need some advice.

1. Blade grind and everything didn't end up centered - i think i know how to address this next time.
2. Its thinner in the back like literal 0 ground and then has some meat on the middle. How do i even sharpen this?
3. Do i move to hand sanding now with EDM stones, or paper? One side i know has some lines that i'll need to take out. Its taken up to 600 trizact.

Its .101" at the spine, and .011" behind the tip. Its pretty thin and seems a bit fragile.

Chime in - start on the next one - hand sand, sharpen, and handle this guy?

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Mark the area in the middle that’s thicker on the spine with black marker etc. with a 120 G Start from the tip with a super light touch and increase at the thick area . It may take many passes, keep checking your thickness till it’s where you want it..

 

[DustinY]

Mark the area in the middle that’s thicker on the spine with black marker etc. with a 120 G Start from the tip with a super light touch and increase at the thick area . It may take many passes, keep checking your thickness till it’s where you want it..

Its the edge thats inconsistent. Near the choil its like 0 ground, but the middle of the blade has a little material.

 

[coldsteelburns]

Its the edge thats inconsistent. Near the choil its like 0 ground, but the middle of the blade has a little material.

This is why it really helps to establish the final (or very close to it) edge thickness after heat treating by grinding in a "45" or thereabouts before finish grinding the bevels.

How much thicker is the edge in the center of it than the heel? You can thin the area by hand using your EDM stones and then touch it back put at the grinder before blending it by hand. I would shoot for a hand finish on this one since the blade would be great to practice your technique on being that it hand so much surface area, that and it will help to blend everything together. You could reduce the edge thickness and feather up a bit into the bevel with stones and then touch it up at the grinder and then go on to hand sand. It may not be perfectly even, but after getting the edge right and hand finishing it probably won't make much a difference, and I'm sure it will still work great. Try your best at the skill level you're currently at and don't worry if it's not perfect, but just always do the best you can on the one you're currently working on. Just my two cents.

~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (Some older vids of some of the older knives I made)

 

[DustinY]

This is why it really helps to establish the final (or very close to it) edge thickness after heat treating by grinding in a "45" or thereabouts before finish grinding the bevels.

How much thicker is the edge in the center of it than the heel? You can thin the area by hand using your EDM stones and then touch it back put at the grinder before blending it by hand. I would shoot for a hand finish on this one since the blade would be great to practice your technique on being that it hand so much surface area, that and it will help to blend everything together. You could reduce the edge thickness and feather up a bit into the bevel with stones and then touch it up at the grinder and then go on to hand sand. It may not be perfectly even, but after getting the edge right and hand finishing it probably won't make much a difference, and I'm sure it will still work great. Try your best at the skill level you're currently at and don't worry if it's not perfect, but just always do the best you can on the one you're currently working on. Just my two cents.

~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (Some older vids of some of the older knives I made)

The issue i'm having is what edge to put on it, if i zero everything out (which i'm sure i won't be able to do evenly, like i've lost center and won't be able to find it).

Also curious by your 45 comment, you do that initially when you're grinding pre-HT to set the stopping point, but you're saying you do it post-HT to set the bevel - or give you an idea of what's to far?


I fixed the tang, crowned the spine (not very well but i think i understand how to make it better), and got everything squared. Next step is still lost on me.

1. FIx the bevels and end up with a potato chip - its already uneven and bad so like, i could make it worst, or potentially ruin it trying to make it better.

2. Move to hand sanding to practice technique - maybe stone it first to figure those out, and then do paper. Then move to handle.

3. Move to the next one - where i take everything i learned over, and mark a fucking center line -_-. LOL.

 

[DustinY]

 

[HSC ///]

A couple of things

this is your first blade I believe you said, don’t expect too much. Don't be too hard on yourself. It Might take you 10 or 20 more blades before you figure it out. Or Maybe you’ll figure it out on the next one..,

Eliminate the choice of quitting/stopping on this blade and moving onto the next one. So don’t bring that up again.

what is the height of the blade at the heel? If you have room you can grind the edge and reprofile it. This will give you some room to straighten out the grind.

A lot of people use the centerline and scribing, that’s fine , but you can also learn to use your Eye. Sight down the profile edge and you can see if you are on center or whatever.

I can see that you have too much pressure at the tip and at the heel and not enough at the middle

https://imgur.com/a/LJB5V4A

Next step is to fix the bevel
You may have to end up getting a shorter knife out of this and accept that

Don’t give up on this one

 

[DustinY]

A couple of things

this is your first blade I believe you said, don’t expect too much. Don't be too hard on yourself. It Might take you 10 or 20 more blades before you figure it out. Or Maybe you’ll figure it out on the next one..,

Eliminate the choice of quitting/stopping on this blade and moving onto the next one. So don’t bring that up again.

what is the height of the blade at the heel? If you have room you can grind the edge and reprofile it. This will give you some room to straighten out the grind.

A lot of people use the centerline and scribing, that’s fine , but you can also learn to use your Eye. Sight down the profile edge and you can see if you are on center or whatever.

I can see that you have too much pressure at the tip and at the heel and not enough at the middle

https://imgur.com/a/LJB5V4A

Next step is to fix the bevel
You may have to end up getting a shorter knife out of this and accept that

Don’t give up on this one

I totally agree with all of this, just feels like it will be hard to get everything centered and even, i can definitely re-profile to try it, its just lost on me how to go about that process, etc.

i am having LOADS of fun, and definitely will keep going, just need to figure out how to best tackle this one. The other issue i'm having is how big it is, for my first one, i need to start at the petty or pairing level lol.

 

[DustinY]

Yea, I would just eliminate the flats by grinding up to the spine at the plunges, and then shorted the ricasso about half its current length. I would also narrow it a bit at the ricasso by about 3/16". In this case, getting rid of the flats by taking the bevels full height from plunge forward, and then grinding away the flats just behind the plunge, will mean that you will have to create a slight "V" shaped slot in the front of your bolster/handle material since the ricasso will also have a slight bevel in it. While it's not very common in western blades, it's often used in Japanese and European swords and other knives like the puukko.

Just drill the first hole at the spine side of the bolster ("ferrule") with a bit slightly smaller in diameter than the thickness of the spine, and the drill a hole at the bottom of the slot using a bit slightly smaller in diameter than the thickness of the bottom of the ricasso. You could then use the same bit as you did for the bottom to drill out the material between the two holes and then file the slow to shape with needle file. It's take some work to get clean, but I think it's a good idea to always try your best on the your current knife rather than to save the effort for the next one, at least while learning and developing your skills... unless it been completely trashed and ruined for whatever reason, then it's fine to move on to the next

You can always use a thinner (spacer-sized) material for the bolster on this one to save on all the extra fit up, unless you are able to drill or mill out a decent sized cavity on the back three quarters of the bolster material to avoid needing to file the entire thickness to match the ricasso, which isn't that hard depending on the material up front, especially if it's wood.

With regard to hand sanding, do you have any structured abrasive belts to use for higher grits (Norax, Trizact etc.)? You can easily get up to at least ~600 grit with those. I would probably skip the EDM stones on this one, unless you decide to keep the flats on the blade, then those would be able to help clean up the transition lines (shinogi). Using paper will produce just enough give to help blend in and flatness inconsistencies in the bevels if ya go full flat. Also, just curious, what size are the stones you have, and do ya know the specific type/material they are?

ETA: You would be able to blend in the flats while hand sanding, but the grind at the ricasso is still a bit low and would take a decent amount of sanding/stoning. I personally think it would be easier to just take it full flat as described above and go a little bit higher in grits if you plan on grinding off the flat ricasso area. This is all just my humble opinion of course.

~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (Some older vids of some of the older knives I made)

Paul, i've been meaning to answer the stone question, and i know a lot of people have different opinions. I wanted to try both Gessweins offering and Falcon - guessweins option are the die makers stones (finishing stones, material, i'm unsure, they make MULTIPLE different kinds but i've heard this is the best for knife making). These correlate to the N stones from Falcon, or are close. Doug Kurz (@KurzKnives on I.G) has done multiple live streams explaining these. Hand satin is my favorite finish, especially because my interest are in making chef's knives, etc. This is supposed to reduce hand sanding time dramatically, so i wanted to try them out. No test but, but i've heard the N stones from Falcon break down a little quicker but result in using fresher abrasive, etc. The stone sizes i have specifically are what Kurz recommended, which were the 1/4x1/2x6 variants. My Gessweins that i got off ebay for a steel are 1/4x1/4x6. I'm excited to see the results

 

[coldsteelburns]

The issue i'm having is what edge to put on it, if i zero everything out (which i'm sure i won't be able to do evenly, like i've lost center and won't be able to find it).

Also curious by your 45 comment, you do that initially when you're grinding pre-HT to set the stopping point, but you're saying you do it post-HT to set the bevel - or give you an idea of what's to far?


I fixed the tang, crowned the spine (not very well but i think i understand how to make it better), and got everything squared. Next step is still lost on me.

1. FIx the bevels and end up with a potato chip - its already uneven and bad so like, i could make it worst, or potentially ruin it trying to make it better.

2. Move to hand sanding to practice technique - maybe stone it first to figure those out, and then do paper. Then move to handle.

3. Move to the next one - where i take everything i learned over, and mark a fucking center line -_-. LOL.

Without a center line just eyeball it. I've seen a number of guys who actually grind without scribing a line. Murray Carter is one who comes to mind.
Just look at is down it's edge from the point down and from the heel down a see which side has a bit more meat to it. If it's really hard to tell, then chances are it really won't make much difference anyway.

With the 45 degree preliminary grind (45 is just a term, it can be any angle that's steeper than the main bevel,I will do it before and after HT is I do any grinding prior to HT. If it's after heat treat, regardless if I have pre-ground the blade prior to it, I will mark an actual center line without any space, or at least very close to it at least within 10 thousands, and then I grind it down to it's final thickness before grinding the rest of the actual bevels. That way, you don't have to worry about the edge when removing the bulk of the material, you just have to grind down to the edge you already established.

For you current situation, I would just convex the lower potion of the bevel, like maybe a 1/2" up the bevel depending on how thin is already it already is.
If get too thin in one area you can lightly grind on the edge profile itself to give than area a little thickness to catch up with the rest. If you're not comfortable with free handing a convex yet, I would do what I originally posted and just use a stone to bring down only the thicker areas a little on each side, lightly feathering the bevel you make with it up into the bevel and then blending it all in afterwards by hand sanding. Again, just eyeball the center and take however much off each side you need to in order to bring down it's thickness with the rest of the edge.


~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (Some older vids of some of the older knives I made)

 

[coldsteelburns]

Paul, i've been meaning to answer the stone question, and i know a lot of people have different opinions. I wanted to try both Gessweins offering and Falcon - guessweins option are the die makers stones (finishing stones, material, i'm unsure, they make MULTIPLE different kinds but i've heard this is the best for knife making). These correlate to the N stones from Falcon, or are close. Doug Kurz (@KurzKnives on I.G) has done multiple live streams explaining these. Hand satin is my favorite finish, especially because my interest are in making chef's knives, etc. This is supposed to reduce hand sanding time dramatically, so i wanted to try them out. No test but, but i've heard the N stones from Falcon break down a little quicker but result in using fresher abrasive, etc. The stone sizes i have specifically are what Kurz recommended, which were the 1/4x1/2x6 variants. My Gessweins that i got off ebay for a steel are 1/4x1/4x6. I'm excited to see the results.

Awesome, yea I have a couple boxes filled withGesswein mold-maker stones in various shapes, sizes, and materials, only a few of the are technically "EDM" stones though. I've come to really like them on smaller bevels, especially where I want crisp lines, such as clips/swedges, or "saber" grinder on smaller knives. I am planning on getting some more to try out pretty soon, I was actually just reading through both sites a few weeks ago trying to figure out which I was gonna try.

I've used the in a way similar to hand sanding, on the long flat on the stone, as well as on their end like they're typically used, although I need to try out a stone holder and some of their diamond lapping liquid. It really seems to depend on the size and shape of the bevel or facet I'm stoning which way works best for me. I still have yet to nail down a favorite stone type and grit progression, but I do know that ones that wear faster are much more pleasant to use, although they may not best the best for sharp transition.

~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (Some older vids of some of the older knives I made)

 

[Rhinoknives1]

I didn’t mentioned that I haven’t scribed a center line in 18 plus years. Flip it over as you grind to see if your even or it looks like a bad mountain road;-) ...Look down from the heel to the point . I grind them after HT and then your done! Im excited your want to focus on Culinary Knives. PM me anytime. Glad to help if I can. I second Harbeer. Do not give up on this one. Make it as functional as possible and get it into the kitchen and see how she works and learn for the next one.. Every maker with any time under their belt has a bucket of those Oh F&&$s blades hidden somewhere. ——-If the say they do not have any f&ed up blades. They are full of it! Even those can be a Design modification That’s what I named them years ago. A D.M. See I was going for this 8” Chef, but had an idea to make a 5” Honsuki... Stay safe & have fun!

 

[Willie71]

I don’t scribe a center line. I just cut in the bevels at 45deg, then grind the bevels without touching the edge until I’m basically done.

 

[FredyCro]

Can you grind horizontally or have a disc grinder? You could do lengthwise passes (or angle the knife 45° lengthwise to get more bevel on the platen) .. this helped me a lot to even out the high spots. Or dye the blade and and have a go with a 120g sanding paper on a flat surface down the bevel. Work on the high spots stay of the low spots. Blend in in the grind line afterwards.

 

[FredyCro]

Can you grind horizontally or have a disc grinder? You could do lengthwise passes (or angle the knife 45° lengthwise to get more bevel on the platen) .. this helped me a lot to even out the high spots. Or dye the blade and and have a go with a 120g sanding paper on a flat surface down the bevel. Work on the high spots stay of the low spots. Blend in in the grind line afterwards.

I am full of advices afrer messing my first blade up a LOT of times. It just seems it will never be done..

 

[DustinY]

I have an update coming - I worked on the blade that’s left me stumped for quite some time. I figured it didn’t matter what happened, it was better to work to finish it and it is after all my first knife.


After re-reading I should have dyed the blade and taken it horizontally to my flat planten to work out the high spots (also a good use for a disc sander - I know what Santa is bringing for Christmas).

Instead I ground towards the spine and took material off til it was fatter all around. I burnt the tip when doing this - forgot to dip in between passes because I’m a idiot, so I reshaped the front of the knife (it’s now like a big barbecue knife). After that I went to working on the areas I could eye that were thicker (again, should have dyed the blade and worked through the high spots on the flat platten - or disk sander). This worked tremendously though, and I started hand sanding. What. A. Task. Jesus, I know why people don’t do it. I tried both sets of stones and definitely prefer the Gessweins. I developed some key techniques and used Nick Wheelers method of alternating directions to clear ALL scratches. I stoned and then used paper to make it clear. I think I can just use the stones to my final grit but paper really made it clear if all the previous scratches were out. Also messed with etching my first blade, and finishing. I still have to sand (after two days I’m not complete). Slow work as I figured out all of the methods. I need to make some of those sanding sticks to make it easier, which will be my project for the weekend (honestly wish someone made these so I could just buy it). I was like Bambi learning to walk - I do have a sanding block from Jeremy @ simplelittlelife (plug lol) and it TRULY made everything a lot easier (at least on the paper front). Again though, another excuse to get a disk sander - I can instantly see how it would make this job, especially on knives so much easier.


I thought that I had finished the show side in the picture I was going to post, after two days of sanding I was supremely excited. Reviewed it in multiple angles to check to ensure I got everything. Cleaned it off, took it inside full of pride of my work, only to see micro scratches in yellow light that I had missed (big sad bummer). You can lie and cheat yourself too, because at almost every angle it looks perfect - but it isn’t. So I think I’m going to move up to 800 - get everything - then drop to 600 for final passes (should make it easier to get everything out on my final passes as I won’t have to do a million of them). I was doing final passes at 600 - with 600 inconsistencies, and I can already see how 15 minutes on final passes could easily turn into 50-1:30 if I don’t do that 800 step.


Overall - knife isn’t perfect - no where close, but it’s allowing me to practice every step of the process and develop my techniques. I’m excited to finish the blade - so I can move onto handles and develop my techniques there (handles seems like ANOTHER PLACE, that a disk sander would be used, especially for the WA handle I plan to make). I will say - after this sanding regime, I feel confident if I work with a smaller blade (a petty, which I plan to do for the kith), I think I can produce something that is above average, and that makes me super excited.

I plan to post more here, and the completed knife in the shop progress thread. Stay tuned - thanks for the support and help.

 

[DustinY]

Just some pictures for the above context.