Good folders vs concept of three knives

[North61]

Knifetester: Quote, "That is an interesting point. There are times that I would like to carry a big knife, because they are fun to use mostly, but end up carrying a hatchet instead simply for that reason. Having a SFA strapped to my pack will not raise any eyebrows on a camping trip, but having my RD9 strapped there might get me locked up in the pockey."

If I am honest it is the "crazy" factor that also has led to me practicing less with the big knives and likely led me to becoming more proficient and comfortable with the axe. I can't afford to get the eccentric tag. My job is much more political than it use to be, and I am afraid there are a few disaffected people who want to pin the tail on the donkey. I hate giving them easy points...and I hate being the donkey. North.

 

[sodak]

Very interesting posts! Thanks for the input everyone! I always learn something from these discussions.

Now I gotta ask. I've heard the term "crooked knife", but never asked exactly what it is. What is it? Anyone have a picture?

Thanks!

 

[Moine]

Hey Cliff,

This thread has got me thinking (ouch I hurt my neuron ).

Something that I'd really, really like to see some day is you designing a 2-3 knives combo that'd be made by some hardcore maker or even made by a good company with the right mindset and knowhow. 2-3 blades that'd be survival oriented... Like a small cutter/scalpel, a tough medium beater and a big chopper.

With all those testings and blade beating and using, you know what works, what doesn't and what's best. I think many people would be interested in such a blade combo.

So... Cliff, what would your dream team blade combo look like ?

Cheers,

David

 

[knifetester]

Now I gotta ask. I've heard the term "crooked knife", but never asked exactly what it is. What is it? Anyone have a picture?

Thanks!

See Jim Aston's article on Crooked knives here. I use the Frost models purchased from Rangnar at Ragweed Forge.
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/ck.html

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...don't those conservative rural Newfoundlanders give you a funny look when you carry a sword into the bush?

If I carried a katana yeah it would probably get a few looks, but if you have a full size felling axe on your shoulder and a three foot swede saw in your hand, then having a knife on your hip isn't going to be a focus point.

Machetes are not uncommon here either, they are solid in canadian tire, usually 18" in length, I have sharpened a bunch for friends. There are no goloks or parangs though, which would be more optimal for wood work.

On an ironic note, I get far more of a hassle using the tactical folding knives. Something like a Spyderco military will draw a lot more looks than carrying a golok in the woods especially if I note its price.

...you do all the wood work.

Cutting and limbing is relatively easy, I can chop wood pretty much all day long. It is the stacking and loading and unloading which is the killer. You handle that part and I'll happily knock down all the wood.

[SFA vs Trailmaster mod]

He said the axe had significantly more chopping power.

The type of wood is critical, the GB products are optomized for soft-medium woods, on that class like clear pine you can match a Wildlife hatchet with a decent 10" blade, but the SFA is going to be significantly higher.

On harder woods though, the GB axes are a bit too thick at the edge, but even then I can't see a 10" bowie outperforming the SFA, it simply has way too much forward balance.

The funny thing about that axe is that I think it is near perfect for most bush craft, having enough size for two handed work but not so large as to be awkward for precision work but don't actually own one.

[axe vs knife]

I think personal preference, ability and skill are the predominate factors rather than the inheirant abilities of the tools themselves.

There is a lot of this but often it comes down to what is used. A lot of the times when people make the strongest statements or recommendations it is often due to lack of experience with other quality tools.

When you have someone like Jim Aston who works with a large variety of blades, axes and other tools, what tends to come across is a universal recommendation as long as the tools are made well.

I would be equally pleased to do a lot of bushcraft with a SFA, 12" Barteaux, Valiant Golok, 18" Ang Khola, Tramontina bolo, or Martindale Golok as long as the heat treat was solid and the edge well shaped.

-Cliff

 

[OmegaA]

Reeve spec's his folders at 0.020" and 0.023" at the edge but the small Sebena I bought was only about half this thickness, once I adjusted the edge angle it can outcut an Opinel on a lot of work.

-Cliff

I do not think there are many people who will do anything to their knives except ordinary sharpening. From the box, I do not think there are many knives that can outperform cutting abilities of Victorinox as a slicer. Well, kitchen knives are not included

You don't cut with the spine of the knife, the edge configuration is more of a factor on cutting performance. For example the Rat Trap can easily match the cutting performance of an Opinel on 3/8" hemp and carving woods if a slight relief is added to the edge.
-Cliff

I agree you do not cut with the spine, but when knife is dull, thinner blade cuts better than thicker one. Plus, it takes less time to sharpen thinner blade than thicker one.

However what is more functional a purely optomized cutting folder (Spyderco Calypso Jr. in ZDP-189) and a heavy duty one (Fulcrum IID) vs an inbetween like the Spyderco Paramilitary or Rat Trap - the multiple knives always win in such comparisons. The more gear you are willing to carry the higher the performance. Multi-function tools can't compete one on one with specialized tools in their niche.

-Cliff

Yes, this what I mean, Cliff. I do not see there is much difference in weight between a few knives or one that does all jobs, but multiple knives provide better reliability, comfort and, possibly, less money to spend. So, from practical point muliple knives seem to be a better choice.

The idea for this topic came to me because I am still thinking to buy a high quality folding knife. However, when I start thinking about the knife's utility role, I just cannot think what I am going to use it for - I compared slicing abilities of several folding knives (to be truthful, none of them are in the same price league with Sebenza) with Swiss Army Knives and SAK was the winner! And when I tried to chop some wood with my BA3 I realised I can do it faster using Victorinox saw, so I guess folders will be lighter than my BA3, i.e will be even worse.

Regards,

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Plus, it takes less time to sharpen thinner blade than thicker one.

This is not as much to do with the spine thickness but edge profile. Boye had many small blades (hunters) which were ~1/4" thick, but cut very well and sharpened very efficiently as the edges were ~0.005" thick.

So, from practical point muliple knives seem to be a better choice.

Pretty much, this is why craftsmens carry a tool pouch.

I compared slicing abilities of several folding knives (to be truthful, none of them are in the same price league with Sebenza) with Swiss Army Knives and SAK was the winner!

Few folding knives can match a properly prepared SAK blade. Here the folders give an advantage in edge retetention, ergonomics, lock strength/security, and overall blade versatility.

And when I tried to chop some wood with my BA3 I realised I can do it faster using Victorinox saw

On hard woods the saw wins easily, on some light brush, alders and soft pine, a decent folder is far quicker. The manix can easily limb out a small pine tree far faster than I can saw the limbs off.

-Cliff

 

[OmegaA]

I came back to my conclusion: good folders are nice, they have better steel and are beatifully engineered, but if you go for some serious adventure... pack SAK, multitool and a heavy duty cutting tool. And don't forget a sharpener. But the key word is SERIOUS, otherwise you don't need to carry all of them.

If you are not tired, lets talk about something else: I read a few times on internet an opinion that a good knife should have not too hard steel to allow to be sharpened on any stone you can find. I agree that some steels are real pain to sharpen, but if you have too soft steel, won't you get tired sharpening it all the time? Is it not worth buying a knife with hard enough steel and then carry a sharpener, let it even be a diamond one, to overcome steel hardness problem?

Busse and other knives with good heat treatment are not in discussion

Regards,

 

[knifetester]

Hey Cliff,

This thread has got me thinking (ouch I hurt my neuron ).

Something that I'd really, really like to see some day is you designing a 2-3 knives combo that'd be made by some hardcore maker or even made by a good company with the right mindset and knowhow. 2-3 blades that'd be survival oriented... Like a small cutter/scalpel, a tough medium beater and a big chopper.

With all those testings and blade beating and using, you know what works, what doesn't and what's best. I think many people would be interested in such a blade combo.

So... Cliff, what would your dream team blade combo look like ?

Cheers,

David

I was hoping Cliff would answer this. Should be interesting. In the mean time, I will give it a shot.

To start out with, a light utility knife. This would be a dedicated cutting knife, a pure cutting machine. A 4” slender drop point blade about 1/16” thick, full flat grind with a light hollow relief. Handle is G10 (shape a combination of the Deer Hunter and the MDK Bearcat). Blade is full hard M2 Quenched, then Cryo treated, no temper. Yes, it would be brittle and hard as heck. But for light cutting, I bet it would be a laser.

Medium Duty Knife:
Something along the lines of the Rinaldi TTKK, except about 6” long, 5/32” thick L6. Full flat grind. Micarta handle.

Heavy Chopper: I really like the knife pictured in this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345692

Changes I would want for my own preferences are:
A 12” blade of 5/16” thick S5 , handle slighly swelled and contoured.

Brush Blade:
The Valaint Golok XXL is actually the perfect size and shape, I would change the handle to Micarta and remove the light finger grooves but keep that large pommel and remove the light finger grooves. Blade steel would likely be S7 or 5160 Banite.

Folder, Slip Joint. Take a 4" knife with the following blades: An M2 blade, run full hard, for carving wood (a small wharncliff with a full flat grind, light hollow relief) a large spearpoint in 52100 flat grind for utility and a fairly wide serrated sheepsfoot deep hollow grind in D2 for rope cutting. Now add a wood saw blade in L6 for cutting wood and plastics. Give it a durable yet attractive handle material (like some old school natural or rag micarta), and some really strong back springs, half stops and superlative fit and finish. No need for file work or anything fancy.


Anyways, that would be my ideal tool kit. Not for everyone that is for usre. Pretty much pure working tools, optimized for certain tasks.

I can always dream, right. . .

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I read a few times on internet an opinion that a good knife should have not too hard steel to allow to be sharpened on any stone you can find.

This is more hype than substance. I have sharpened even high carbon stainless knives on a concrete block for example. Plus of course the amount of work it takes with a quality knife to reduce the edge to the point where you could improve it on a rock is huge.

Blade is full hard M2 Quenched, then Cryo treated, no temper.

I assume you mean no temper draw, tempering is critical for secondary hardening.

Something that I'd really, really like to see some day is you designing a 2-3 knives combo that'd be made by some hardcore maker or even made by a good company with the right mindset and knowhow.

What I would design for general use and what I would carry would be fairly different and which would pose a fairly interesting design problem. I always find it interesting when someone like averageguy comes in and degrades people for not chosing knives that he would pick. In most cases I think it is necessary to offer blades in several configurations for user skill and physical strength.

I tend to like fairly heavy brush blades for example and would be comfortable working with a 3/8" blade, 2" wide, 14" long, and would take that myself for a primary wood blade. For a lot of people though that simply too heavy and a 1/4" and even 3/16" version would be much more suitable. Often times makers/manufactuers need to make not what is optimal, but what is best suited from an average point of view.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

I assume you mean no temper draw, tempering is critical for secondary hardening.

Yes, no temper draw would be more specific.

 

[Brian6244]

Well personally I don't subscribe to the "3 Knife Rule" but then I admit that I am likeweight fanatic when it comes to hiking and camping. A single 4" fixed blade is all I need. Ironically most true lightweight hikers consider anything larger than a small-medium SAK to be too much. They probably look at my 4" fixed blade like it's the two-handed sword weilded by Arnie in Conan the Barbarian.

 

[5Ronins]

Alright that's it, I've read this etnire thread!
I'm taking my HI 18" gelbu special, 13" Hi bowie, LM wave , bm 910 stryker and hitting the Nova Scotian woods!

 

[sawgrass]

For normal carry, I like a William Henry knife with ZDP 189 which I sharpen and keep sharp along with a Spyderco/Farid K2 10v, which I also sharpen. I would carry a fixed Khukuri in the woods too, but the K2 will field butcher anything.