Good HT article in "Blade".

Okay...more rumor control dialogue here. I am a bit worried about my W2. I finished up a knife and it doesn't seem nearly as sharp as when i first put an edge on it befoe the last round of hand sanding. Someone told me that W2 requires such a fast quench that you can't really deep harden it. This is some what contrary to what I have heard,but I am worried that quenching in Tough Quench may have only "carburized" the surface and left the steel soft. What has your experience been with W2 if any, Kevin? Anyone else who uses W2? I did not agitate and i used clay on the blade.....perhaps too much. Would fulling quenching an uncoated blade while agitating in Tough Quench do the trip? When I got to thinking about this, I was trying to figure out what the fastest readily available quenchant would be and a possibility I came up with was something from my deep sea fishing experiences. What we call a "brine slurpee". We take a big cooler full of brine and pour a huge amount of crushed ice into it, This solution gets cold enough to do a slow flash freeze on tuna so that it doesn't get freezer burn. Would stuff this work for quenching when agitated or would it shock the blade too much? Is it even necessary?
 
Joe you want to shoot for the quench that will yield maximum hardness from trapped carbon without overstressing things. My comeback to all the folks who like to reply "I don't need fancy oil, my (insert favorite alternative quench) is fast enough!" is that if speed was all that mattered why does't everybody, including industry, just use brine?

Your W2 should harden up quite well on the edge if put into the Toughquench bare. I have had many folks ask me how to fix heat treat problems and after much time spent trouble shooting they then mention something about clay:rolleyes: I think too many folks assume that everybody clays their blades and do not bother to include that tid bit which is an improtant tid bit to include becasue it has a profound effect on the hardening process, even the parts not actually covered by it. The thicker the clay the farther you will need to keep it away from the edge for oil. Ashi lines will need to be spaced more carefully because the oil will not bite right up next them like water will.

I would wager that if you took the same blade, cleaned it up and quenched it bare you would get full hardness and I persoanlly LOVE the wild temper lines W2 forms just naturally on a bare blade in many oils.

It is a fact that W2 is not a deep hardening steel, the "W" stands for "water hardening" becasue industry needed to resort to water to harden it in thicker sections. But under 1/4" in knife type cross sections oils should get you there just fine. And this steel takes and edge that is very cool:thumbup: .
 
so dunk that mutha bare and swish it around, eh?:D Sounds like a plan:thumbup:
 
...Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts....

Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, one certainly doesn't see this level of wisdom coming from his peers these days :rolleyes: .

I was just on the phone chatting with Rick Barrett about this topic in swords, he makes traditional katanas, I make through hardened European swords, and the great thing is that if you use a sword properly neither is inferior to the other, because both should be able to handle anything we can dish out in proper use, heck they did handle it for 1000 years! It wasn't until the modern people, who have never had to swing one in battle, decided they needed to make overhyped super blades that could either chop concrete or bend in vises (neither of which have anything to do with cutting things) did this even need to be addressed.

It is not the actaull application that I take exception with, however, it is using false concepts in marketing so widely that it starts to be believed as fact that worries me. So I when I say it doesn't really matter, I myself could never say so what? “So what” sounds even more self defeating than "good enough". If a makers interest in blade performance actually does go beyond a convenient marketing angle, good enough is not acceptable. The problem with well known knife guys suggesting things is that their popularity has no more bearing on the accuracy or soundness of the data than your horoscope for the day. Perhaps hardening the steel is better than just leaving it soft, but so what? Once we find any level of improvement as irrelevant then there can be no limit to how low our standards can go. Really good heat treating can be expensive and time consuming, why not offer a knife at half the price by just eliminating the step entirely? Cold hammer an edge on scrap steel so it is not dead soft, it won’t be as hard as the heat treated stuff, but so what?

One of the most common points I get from people on the topic of quenchants, makes it obvious that they have never even tried to buy quench oil because if one does buy quench oil in 55 gallon drums it will almost certainly be cheaper per gallon than most of the alternatives, I know, that’s why I do it. One serious stumbling block to makers getting started in this business is the alluring message that $50 can get you set up with all you need to be a professional knifemaker. $50 is great for a hobby, or to try things out to see if this is what you want to do with your life, but when you are ready to really do it you may want to put a little more back into the business than $50. Imagine applying for a job as a mechanic and when your would be employer asks what tools you have you let him know that you have some duct tape and some bailing wire and you don’t need any damned wrenches. If you want to make frontier type primitives in a very traditional way then simplicity is the way to go. But if your interest rests with being one of those guys you admire in the magazines and be confident that you truly are offering the best modern product you can, you are going to need the tools to do it. Simply lowering the standards to meet ones current tools is not just self destructive it hurts the whole field should those standards become accepted.

What I call “ancestor worship”, actually just the logic fallacy of appealing to tradition, is one of the most common crosses held up to sound metallurgy when it begins to threaten folks established way of doing things. Our children and grand children would not laugh, they would cry and curse us if we ignore history and instead of building on and improving the old ways we step backward to embrace them. When we do this we get things like 1000 years of stagnation while waiting for the western world to pick up where the Greeks and Romans left off. And in those times charismatic leaders were able to hold power through mysticism, religious fervor and keeping the population ignorant of the world around them. Gutenburg cannot be given enough credit for putting the foot in the behind of mankind to get it moving again. With printed books the educated masses could push progress well beyond the “old ways” and through the industrial revolution. We are here today not because we thought the old ways were better, but because we thought we could do better than the old ways!
 
so dunk that mutha bare and swish it around, eh?:D Sounds like a plan:thumbup:

Thats how I would do it:) . As I previously mentioned, just holding the blade stationary in still oil leaves you at the mercy of basic convection and any vapor jacket that forms. Good agitation is the standard with virtually every heat treater except knifemakers (why are we so #$@damned contrary?:confused: ) I do however believe that one must be careful how they move a blade through still oil (the ideal way is to move the oil around the blade). I avoid side to side motions and prefer to go up and down or tip to tang in a cutting motion through the oil in order to keep the flow even on both sides.
 
Kevin, I"ll start where you left off, with Fitzo :) As you were explaining how to prepare the sample I'll have to admit, I was with you until you got to the "resin", and the "oil immersion" (Its funny how fast the mind works & multi-tasks next to even the fastest computer), at that moment I thought "I should have listened just a little better in science" :) and "Fitzo", who, ironically, I am incommunicato with about engraving and "life in general", my friend (and a scientist :) ) ! I understand most everything else, lapping (I use a diprofil, and the many "gadgets","stones" & "compounds" associated with it) and especially the "get a good book" part. As Mark said, and I will second, Thank You ! :thumbup: Thank you for taking the time & effort to educate me today, and so many times in the past. I still reference many of your "two page posts" ;) , and other writings, some are even permanent fixtures on my shop walls. No need to respond to any of this. What you have given me today "I can run with". Again, I Thank You..... Hey Fitzo :D


David, what Fitzo said. I am not a optical geek at all but the oil immersion seems to be helpful due to the way light is bent and received at those magnifications. It seems to have the same effect as looking through goggles under water instead of the naked eye. The greatest benefit I find in mounting specimens is to keep the abrasives from under cutting the edges and making them out of focus under the scope. Bakelite would still be great for this but other products have been developed. Buehler is the main place folks get theses supplies but I also have a catalog from another company in Ohio that is very reasonable, I will dig it out and share it later.

P.S. Fitzo, for the time being I am going to have to improve my leather disks, it turns out my current lathe equipment cannot handle the surfacing operations on the maple to get it smoothed out enough to provide an even finish. It was working but the “bumpity bump” of an uneven disk is problematic until I can get proper face plates for my lathe.
 
Back to the original topic, I talked to Tim Z. on Friday and he was not aware of the ommited "0", but he was confident that most would either figure it out or forgive the magazine for the error. Having another neurotic steel geek in your state can be handy. I was working up some test samples and my test blocks are getting a little dimpled, I know Tim keeps his tester calibrated as well as I do, so I sent them off to him to double check my numbers before I started my readings, in return I dropped some wood in my vacuum chamber for him. One thing I like about this business is the generosity of information and how knifemakers will always help each other out.
 
Kevin,

You have zero reason to be sorry for anything in this, or any other posts you have so graciously made. People seem to forget sometimes that the giving of your time to share information is not something you have to do.

Folks would be well advised to listen to more technical data coming from Kevin, Mete and countless others. They have made a convert out of me. I thought I would never give up the witchcraft bladesmithing that I did.

Thanks for all the info You freely give Kevin. Oh and If You need a place to stay during Harleys hammer-in. I'm only about 40 minutes from his place , so you could save the cost of a motel and crash here. I wont even pick your brain :D and my Wife is a mean cook.

Mark

But I do believe I have went over the line in referring specifically to Alan’s recent testing while debunking widespread myths. It is true that I do not have to participate in these discussions and my interest is solely in exchanging good information but my zeal for combating hype can sometimes result in collateral damage. If I drive somebody into the arms of hype in order to escape my fire and brimstone, what have I accomplished?

Mark thank you for the gracious offer, I have yet to make my travel arrangements but I will be certain to talk with you as much as possible when in your area. Here on the forums I want no special consideration though, a huge part of the problem with bad information in our business is that too many claims are protected from proper scrutiny by politeness or defensiveness. Good information can be spread out on the table in the full light of day and withstand scrutiny without any personal agendas.
 
At the current time I am right in the middle of some rather large changes in my computer/on-line and knife making life.

My current laptop is totally about calling it quits.
There seems to be some major problems going on inside it, one of them being That the desktop will just not 'boot up".

There is something running the hardrive, even right now, that is not in any way connected to what I am attempting to do.
It's like the computer has been taken over by someone else?

I have another problem with "spywear"? running that my wife has tried everything to clear but will not go away.
She even took EVERYTHING off the computer, clearing everything as if it was a new computer, but it didn't work.
I don't know where this spywear came from, I have tried a few changes in what I do and where I go, but so far nothing has worked.

Thus next week or so, I will be changing to a new computer we are getting with out Tax refund.
I will be changing servers as well then and going to an over-air provider and not the dial-up I have now.

In my knife-making world, I am right in the middle of gutting my old shop and cleaning it out of all the junk that has gathered in the last 10 years.
I had a roll-off dumpster dropped off and I am filling it right now.

As for my tests of knife blades in the future?
Alan?s recent testing .

As I tried to explane, I did the 90-bend test mostly because that is part of the big test around here with you bladesmiths. (remember I didnt invent the test, you guys did)

But I do seek to be known as a real knifemaker, as in - real "bladesmith" as found in history. Not just a stock-removal maker because the forge and fire is where it's at for me.
My Knife making has to be about more than my just standing at a grinder all day.
Thus the true importance in proving to myself that I can heat-treat a blade that can pass you guy's tests.
But I didn't do the one test part about chopping though the 2X4 because I didnt actually know about that part of the test.
And I didnt have a 2X4 anyway. LOL

I also have been thinking about other non-standard tests that people talk about doing to a knife before I bend the blade to 90 next time.

One guy suggested hitting the blade very hard on the horn of the anvil.
I am not sure yet if I am to hit it blade down, on the side, or on the tang?

I have read on the forum about a few other ways to test a blade that I could try before I do the next 90 bend test.
I saw a video on Ed Fowler's forum of a guy who pounded his knife into some firewood, then showed how it would still cut paper.
Im not sure that test would work on my convex edge because, except for the start of the pounding, most of the rest of the cut into the wood would be more splitting with the sides of the blade and not cutting with the point. The point of my knife might not even rub at all into the firewood.
.
I would also next time like to test how far I can pull on a handle that I make before it fails.
I am not sure how to test the handle. My handles are stick-tang, so I want a way to check the bond of 2-ton epoxy. I need to design a test that pulls the handle straight off the tang.
It would also be nice to be able to record the force needed to cause a bond to fail. That way I can test different glue

Does anyone know how to test such a test?

I finally got into town and got the BLADE mag so I was able to enjoy reading the article by Tim Zowada.

I saw on page 112 a photo of some guys HT swords.
I would have loved to see that and hope in the future they might have an article about that, as that's what I believe I wish to learn next year with 1050 katana.
 
Allan.....free yourself from the slavery of Windows and get a Mac. :D I am not an Apple geek. I have alwasy had PC's and the rest of my family has just shaken their heads and said "poor boy....won't he ever learn?" I jjust got a 24 inch I Mac and boy, what a difference!!!! No crashing, slowing down, no spyware, trojans, etc and no need to reload the puter once a year. I'm sold to the point that I will also be getting an I Phone this summer.
Kevin....NOW you tell me. I swished that thing from side to side and got some WILD looking patterns where the scales blew off, etc. And they are different on each side......lol. BUT, it came out of the quench perfectly straight just like when it went in, It is in the oven now......report to follow.
 
Allan.....free yourself from the slavery of Windows and get a Mac.

Well,,,Im interested in any computer that will get me what i want, for the price Im willing to pay.

The problem is, I need to be able to walk into a store and look at the computer, I want to see what it feels like, what it is...what it has that I want in my house.
Trouble is, I dont have a clue what store around my town that sells computers has Mac on display?

last night my wife and I again went into the computer store and looked at the two computers that are in our price range and have the things I want .....

last night we talked about the need for "Wide-screen"

Im not sure if I want Wide screen, or not yet???
While widescreen is fun for a movie, the truth is I got a big TV to watch movies on already, and the fact is that most of the things I will look at on the web will be chopped on the sides so I actually end up with less "big-ness" on the screen than if I had got a smaller yet normal shapped screen....

(the other little thing is, why do most of the people that own the Mac, seem to act like they are in a cult?...LOL)
 
lol...Mac? cult? Why do guys who forge blades act like they are in a cult?:D If there is a Comp USA in yor area, go their. They are a BIG Mac dealer. You can get a 17 inch I Mac for somewhere in the $900's. The 20 inch should be around 41400 or so. Well worth the money. If you also want to run Windows, then buy Parallels or download Boot Camp for free. The question you should really be asking is why don't spyware programs, trojans, etc automatically load onto OS X even though you aren't using the VERY expensive aftermarket security programs that you HAVE to use on Windows?
 
Alan Molstad...Or I guess it's Allan Molstad now. What did you do forget your other log in info? Or Is this Dah'Qo tah forge? Seems You showed up a couple of months after Dah Qo Tah self destructed:rolleyes:

If this is the Klingon warrior...in this link that was nearly booted off the forums for your disruptive behavior?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/member.php?u=121949

If this is You Dah'Qotah, please examine your past behavior and avoid repeating it. Trust me Alan or Allan , you will be banned.

If this is not you, then you should meet this guy and be friends.

Nobody minds answering your questions. You just need to slow down a bit and stick with one story. Your all over the place with your questions and comments. If you have computer problems , post them in the appropriate section.

So is this you or not?
 
Yes, topics do tend to stray a bit from the title on the more busy topics, but thats what normal conversations do. However, it is wise to always return to the main topic too, so I see your point.

Now on page 106 Tim tells us that quenching only the edge is filled with several technical problems.
But he never gets around to listing the problems that my HT might need to watch out for.

I heat-treat my blades by use of a O/A torch and quench only the edge.
In actuall life I always end up with about 3/4th to about 4/5th of the blade at the critical temperature(page 105). I do check and the spine of my knife is still magnetic

I would love to have Tim write about in his future articles about how to do a correct edge quench.
However Tim does talk about the Japanese clay system and how it may do the same thing as I do, but is more easy to pull off.

I would love to see a future article by Tim talking about how to do the clay-coated quench too. Because of the few times I have done it I have never really been sure it was correct as well as the tempering.
To temper a sword I have to use the kitchen oven. But there is no way to temper a katana in a oven without part sticking out.

I would love to see how the guys in the photo in the article on page 112, did the tempering?
 
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