good steel to start with? (stock removal)

GibsonFan

GibsonFan

Joined
Jul 7, 2006
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Gentlemen... I need your advice.

I've plumb run out of old files and cheap knives to grind on. Time to get serious. I've put in enough time and effort to trust myself, that I really want to learn to do this right.

I'll be ordering some steel in the next couple weeks (waiting for my dear ol' Uncle Sam to send me back the taxes I overpaid). I want to stock up on some stuff I can learn to HT with minimal equipment (I have a basic propane torch, not sure if I can use MAPP with it?). I already have a Delta 4x36 grinder and plenty files, diamond plates, stones, etc. I'm pretty confident in my ability to grind blades to shape and straighten out the hiccups. I already want a better grinder for obvious reasons, but my budget demands that I focus on skills rather than equipment. It is within my scope to build a small firebrick propane forge for HT'ing; I will be studying on that more as I go along.

I intend to choose one type of "plain" carbon steel, to keep my brain and budget from overloading. 1/8" and 1/4" stock or thereabouts, so I can make both large and small knives. I am strictly stock-removal for now.

I had my heart set on 1095 because I own some knives made with it and similar steels, and like them very much. Also, I've read it's very forgiving for a newbie like me to learn on. It's highly recommended in most of the tutorials I've seen. But many recent comments about 1075/1080/1084 sure have me thinking! People whose work I respect very much, have said they're easier than 1095 to HT correctly. At this point in my learning, I don't give a rip about corrosion resistance and pretty mirror finishes. I simply want to learn how to make a tough knife that can take a very sharp edge and withstand some beating. I want to edge-quench for a tough spine and a hard edge.

Can you please explain why/how 1075/1080/1084 are easier to HT than 1095? Can I get similar performance from them?

The cost difference between them isn't that much; for me it's about being able to HT them right with a minimum of waste from goof-ups. I'm not getting into water-quenches or clay-tempering or any advanced techniques like that YET, I'm trying to "Keep It Simple, Stupid!" I just want to make reliable, hard-working knives. I'm one of those cranky old-school guys who still believes in "form follows function".

I'm sure these questions have been asked a million times; I thank you all in advance for your patience and insights.
 
from what i hear 5160 is good to start out on. same with 1084 and you can use the magnet trick on it too. thats just what i heard so i figured i would pass it on to you.
 
Yeah I've read the same about 5160, especially for bigger blades. But recent posts about 1080 etc have really got me thinking. If it's easier to HT correctly with similar performance, that's what I want.

I believe the magnet "trick" holds true regardless.
 
1080 is a great starter steel. cheap, easy to find and ht. The magnet trick doesnt work on all steels, but I think it does on most high carbon knife steels.
 
Please share your technique for HT'ing 1080. Perhaps there are links here I have overlooked?
 
The eutectic in steel is 1080. 1075 and 1084 are the eutectic for practical purposes. At the eutectic the HT is the simplest. It is the lowest point on the heat curve, with the best chances of getting hard at quench. The magnet trick for determining when the steel is at critical temperature is accurate at the eutectic only. 1095 is a great steel , but you have to have a bit more control over the heat and the quench has to be very fast.With 1095 you are dealing with fractions of a second and a specific quenching medium. With 1080 you have a little more wiggle room on the heat and soak as well as almost any oil quenching medium will work, since you have several seconds to cool it. It will get virtually as hard as 1095. You can buy from one bar to a 100# lot from Bruno and Mace. See the "For Sale" forum.
Stacy
 
What Stacy said! One of the reasons that eutectoid steels are easier to heat treat is that when cooled slowly the are pretty much 100% pearlite. Pearlite is a structure that converts to stable austenite quickly at the lowest temperature. Steels below the eutectoid when cooled slowly have pearlite and excees iron in the form of ferrite so they take more time/heat to get the excess ferrite into solution and similarly steels above the eutectoid, like 1095, have pearlite and excess carbides in the form of cementite, requiring more time/heat as well to get the cementite into solution. Since everything in heat treating is time sensitive longer soaks at lower austenitizing temperatures can avoid the higher temperature requirements of some of these steels.

The eutectoid for a simple carbon steel with practically no alloying elements other than carbon would be around 1085. All the steels we use though have manganese and other elements in small amounts which pushes the eutectoid down to around 1075. These alloying elements make hardening easier as well and 1075/1080/1084 all have more manganese than 1095. This has the effect of making 1095, a shallow hardening steel, trickier to harden reliably since it requires a very quick quench like water or a fast oil.
 
1095, 1084,52100 are the steels I use here in my shop. Here is a link to it. Great people to work with. http://www.admiralsteel.com/ Please visit my site as well, I hope this was of help to you. God bless and have safe day.

Barkes
When I leave this world I would like to be known by the one who made his knives from start to finish. And I sell what I make and I make what I sell.
http://my.hsonline.net/wizard
:)
 
If you were grinding and hiring the heat treatment out I would say you have the advantage of usings any steel you want, the sky is the limit under these circumstances. But if you are looking to heat treat in a forge, and you mentioned wnat steel good to start out on, then I totally concurr with the recomendation of sticking with 10XX series, and I also must agree with Stacy that the clsoer you get to .80% carbon in these steels the easier things will be. Carbon and iron is the simplest alloy going, and the simpler the better for cutting ones teeth on this stuff. 10XX steel are just one step above this with the addition of manganese. After this look at each additional alloy added as another skill level to deal with, especially carbide formers. The next element you are likely to encounter will be chromium. in samll ammounts this will be on step up in the complexity of the heat treatment, in larger ammounts things go exponential. Vanadium, tungsten and others will give the same concerns with much smaller doses.

What the issue is are soak times and temperature controls. When you have to dissolve extra carbides, more time at tighter temperatures are required this becomes a non issue when something as simple as 1080 is used.
 
I'm using almost exclusively 1095 with a smattering of O1. I've done some work in ATS-34 and 440c, but won't go back to them until I have improved my grinding skills.
 
I recommend 1095 as well.:cool:

I just started making knives summer of '06, and it makes some great knives, considering my skills.

Admiral Steel is great to work with, and good prices on 1095.

Just keep the quench pan close, and rehearse the quench a few times for speed. (Be careful not to slosh oil though)
 
I am new as well and have been using 1095 because its easy to work and the heat treat is relativly easy, I Heat with a welding torch to non-magnetic and try to hold the color uniform for a couple of minutes, if the color fades I reheat for a couple of more. I preheat a quart of oil (happens to be motorcycle fork oil, I had a bunch and seemed to meet all the requirements) to 130 F. I do this by heating the bottom of my quench pan (cake pan) with a propane torch. I keep the blade in vice grips and when heated I put into the quench. So far this has worked well, I just finished two blades yesterday and they were very hard to file. I place in a oven at 350 for about 1 hour, then increase to 375 if after about 1 hour I do not get a good straw color I go to 400. The blades I just finished got the best straw color I have seen at the 375. I place them in the freezer until I am ready to do some more work ( I dont know why but some say it does some good). I am finishing the knives this week and will probably sharpen later in the week. Other blades I have done will cut rope like crazy, but I dont have a good test blade to compare.
good luck
 
As a beginner steel I think 1070 or 5160 are best. They are both forgiving are easily hardened in thin oil and get a good temper easily.
1095 is anyway a lot similar to the W1 or W2 files are made of.
 
Thanks again guys! I think I'm on the right track at least. You all have convinced me to go with the simpler steels (1070-1084) to give myself a margin of error in HT.
 
Yep. Especially because there is really nothing to be really gained in using 1095 (or other hypereuctectoid alloys) in the average knife. You may get carbides that help keeping a sharp edge a little more, but a knife's quality (supposing you use a decent medium to high carbon steel) is made 95% by heat treatment and 5% by the steel itself.
The less the chance of a mess up in the ht, the higher the chance of a superior knife.
Remember that there are a lot of REALLY good knifemakers and bladesmiths out there that use as choice steel plain 1050...
A decent steel with real masterful heat treat will make a superior knife. A sci-fi steel with a crappy heat treat will just make an expensive "knife shaped object"...
As long as you are interested ina good blade with good edge, most of the other considerations on steel are just :jerkit:
Things may change if you need an excellent blade that is also inoxidable, and must be long, and flexible, and keep a good edge.
But as long as a very good blade with a very good edge is your goal, don't get overly worried with exotic steels: go for simple low alloy medium-high carbon steel, say bewteen 0.50 and 0.85. ;)

PS: This is my PERSONAL opinion, and to be honest I must also state that I don't like, on principle, high alloy steels that need rigid heat treating procedures, least you spoil everything. Simple carbon steel will allow you to play much more with heat treat, with differential tempers and hardening. It will rust, unless cared for, obviously. :)
 
As I said earlier, corrosion resistance and "fancy" steel-of-the-month is the very least of my priorities right now. I'm much more concerned with getting my skills up to speed and developing my understanding of blade geometry. I would rather touch up the edge more often, than screw up the HT and have it chip or break. Nor am I afraid of patina, or wiping a dab of oil on the blade for storage.

I'd like to say that I'm not into crazy-wild blade designs, either; I have always liked small drop-points and large bowies... not very exciting, perhaps, but they have served me well.

I'm somewhat surprised by the favorable response to using the simpler steels; but what you've all told me makes a lot of sense. Thank you all very much.
 
PimpinSquee said:
from what i hear 5160 is good to start out on. same with 1084 and you can use the magnet trick on it too. thats just what i heard so i figured i would pass it on to you.
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Ill secound 5160 if for no other reason than the cost to get it. Most 80s cars and trucks with leaf springs used 5160 in those springs and junk yards are full of those cars and trucks. So cheap isnt even the word for the stuff. Only thing is youll need to flaten them your self. Ive thought of a trick that may work and uses the hole in the spring thats already there. Just drill a hole in a chunk of plate steel long enough for the spring bolt spring to plate and take a tourch to it while you have it all nice and hot just tighten the bolt down. Then heat some more and let it cool. After that you will want to remove the bolt and heat again and take out any waves in the spring with a plate on top again bolted through the hole.

Not tried this so it may not even work hard to say or it may make it flat as a pancake with out any trouble at all.
 
son_of_bluegrass said:
I use 1095, started with it. The hardest part of heat treating 1095 is you have somewhat under 1 second to get from critical (1450-1500 F) to about 800 F. Here is how I heat treat.
http://www.geocities.com/son_of_bluegrass/heattreat.html

One brick forges are reportedly easy and cheep to build for heat treating. I made a forge from an old weber grill.

ron
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Rofl good one bluegrass your site has exceeded its transfer limit :)

That will teach you to link it fromt hese forums now wotn it hehe
 
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