Gorrila Steel Marketing?

B

Balls Deep

Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
342
I feel like lately when doing the usual researching and info gathering on knives I'm starting to see perspectives and opinions that are varying pretty greatly with regards to steel properties, specifically with what I would traditionally think to be lower end steels: 4116 Krupps, 8cr13Mov, Aus 8.

I want to be careful with this post. My intention is not to create a pissing contest.

These are steels are great in my experience but I'm finding comparison charts naming d2 as having only mildly better edge retention than Aus 8 and 8cr13mov and I've also seen information saying that 4116 krupps has all the positive properties of Aus 8 but with better toughness and rust resistance.

Now it could be that these steels are truly better than some of the other traditionally good steels these days and just because something is inexpensive doesn't mean it's trash.

This information is coming from websites that at least present as reputable. I guess what I'm specifically asking is has anyone drastically changed their opinions on the above named steels or is a sense that maybe there's some underground marketing going on for these lower end steels to make them appear better?
 
IMHO charts are literally one of the worst things to look at when trying to decide on how one steel compares to the next. not saying some may not be spot on, and i myself have as well had to sort through this very same connundrum, but you have to take things like that with a grain of salt. there are too many variables and biases to most of these charts that can throw a wrench into their validity, such as: where did the information come from? for instance edge retention... what medium? push cuts or slicing, chopping or use on thick dirty haired animals? not all edge retention is equal and different steels will do better in different applications. toughness is also such a hard one to nail down by reading charts, so much so that even among experienced folks with either experience and or actual data on said numbers it's often not known whether the information is relative to one another, ie: V-notch testing vs C notch or un-notched samples... these different testing types will yield different numbers and in turn if they are read simply as the "charpy number" without differentiating between them will often show a way higher number for one steel that may actually be easier to fracture... and is that even what you're looking for? like is it toughness you are actually thinking of for your application, or strength or edge stability, or does the person making the chart even know the difference? These are only two issues i have with charts, and there are many more, however the big problem as i see it is the politician factor... as in, who stands to benefit from making said chart? if company A is using xxx steel, and let's say they are slightly biased then if they look hard enough to find the results they want in a given application and ignore most other information that doesn't fit their agenda then they can easily make a handy dandy chart with "valid data" that heavily favours a product that may or may not be what they say and in turn push out this fake "true" information in hopes of selling more knives or supplies. Anyway... all that is to say, i wouldn't put as much faith in charts. you'd be way better off in the search function of this forum or asking people with experience in these areas relatively specific questions on what it is you want to know.

good luck
 
Krupp 1.4116 would have similar performance to 420HC if it were HT'd to a higher Rockwell - Buck HT's 420HC to 58Rc, I usually see Krupp 1.4116 at only ~55Rc which is enough to make a difference in performance. If you find a knife in 4116 at satisfactorily high hardness and in a design you like, then it is just a matter of whether or not you feel like spending your money to support a company based on Nazi power, slave-labor, murder, antisemitism, and war crimes. *shrug*

8Cr13MoV is used in crappy chinese knives and quality chinese knives, and should perform similarly to Aus8 depending on HT, and both should perform above 4116. How noticeable the difference depends on your application/use.

D2 would probably not make a good kitchen knife, but I'd take it over any of the above in a hunting knife or something for abrasive work any day of the week, especially since it is usually HT'd above 60Rc. The higher rockwell and also higher carbide content mean that it will hold its edge MUCH better in a variety of tasks, IME, and presents toughness comparable to 440C and S30V and S35VN, but again HT makes all the difference.
 
That's what got me into this is I was looking around at shops and saw that one of the online knife shops is carry a D2 version of the Rat1 which got me thinking about how D2 would compare to Aus8 in a folder like that. I started doing some research and the review that followed was basically showing D2 to be and inferior choice.

I definitely get the piece about heat treats, edge geometry, and all of those being significant factor. I had just never read anything blasting D2 that badly.

Also with krupps - my understanding is 4116 krupps is x50cr15mov which I've used quite a bit in Mercer kitchen cutlery and I've really enjoyed it, They at least advertise 58rc on their kitchen knives. So in my mind I'm thinking, well I could see how it may get such a good review - but you don't really see high dollar hunting or folding knives being manufactured in this steel.
 
I feel as if AUS8 gets a bad rap and is underrated. I think it's ability really, really depends on the HT, or that's it's properties are very dependent on how it's cooked.

I've used knives with okay AUS8. I've used garbage AUS8 from China. There's Benchmade AUS8 from China and it's awesome. Isn't prone to rust as much as D2 (more than usual), intensely sharp and easy to sharpen. What it isn't is a hard tool steel. Made to slice like VG. Then there's AUS8 used on Al Mar. Yet it feels like CTS-XHP. It really is amazing especially when you consider the blade is over 2 decades old. To dismiss the Al Mar simply because it's not made from premium materials would be foolhardy. It feels like a Rolex similar to a Sebenza; that's all true.

It's like Aogami, where process is just as vital as the pieces. This is where design that goes much deeper than just shape is really evident. Quality of craftsmanship and heart of a designer.

That's just my opinion on AUS8.. or maybe that's my opinion on Al Mar.
 
My brother still has one of the old AUS 8 benchmades and though I was a young kid I do remember when all of the medium high end knives were advertising Aus 8. Weird to think 20 years later that's going to be the "low end" knife steel.
 
chiral.grolim said:
. If you find a knife in 4116 at satisfactorily high hardness and in a design you like, then it is just a matter of whether or not you feel like spending your money to support a company based on Nazi power, slave-labor, murder, antisemitism, and war crimes. *shrug*
.
Click to expand...

Balls Deep said:
And apparently a string of easily preventable factory injuries due to a lack of oversight for cost saving purposes.
Click to expand...

Just because Krupp openly aknowledges their Nazi past and thus makes for an easy target they dont deserve to be the only ones to experience our anger.

If a raw material supplier for a knife should be punished then surely manufacturers of the final products.

How about boycotting Seki blades which have been used to commit torture and murder on Chinese civilians?

Which American companies had build scores of Nazi vehicles while at first refusing to build military equipment for their own country? Who benefitted from slave labor and on top of that asked the American tax payers to compensate them for bomb damages to their factories in Germany? :-o
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm
 
Last edited:
Let's stop with the Nazi garbage and stick to the steel itself. Mmmkay? This is not a political science or global economics course.
 
Getting back on track, it seems like comparison wise, AUS8 may be the better steel on a folder that you're looking for the that fine edge vs. d2 which is tougher, a trait not as needed on a folder.
 
Balls Deep said:
My brother still has one of the old AUS 8 benchmades and though I was a young kid I do remember when all of the medium high end knives were advertising Aus 8. Weird to think 20 years later that's going to be the "low end" knife steel.
Click to expand...

First, it's "guerrilla." Gorillas are the big monkeys. Guerrillas use unconventional tactics to battle larger forces.

Second, and to the point, is that marketing has always bumped steels "down the line." Nothing new. Back when, 440C was the hottest, sexiest thing out there. Steel X is out, then new thing steel Y comes out, manufacturers wanna sell it, steel junkies wanna buy it, and boom, even though X hasn't changed, X is old and busted, and Y is new hotness.

Its not just how "steel" works. Apple does it with their own products.
 
marcinek said:
First, it's "guerrilla." Gorillas are the big monkeys. Guerrillas use unconventional tactics to battle larger forces.

Second, and to the point, is that marketing has always bumped steels "down the line." Nothing new. Back when, 440C was the hottest, sexiest thing out there. Steel X is out, then new thing steel Y comes out, manufacturers wanna sell it, steel junkies wanna buy it, and boom, even though X hasn't changed, X is old and busted, and Y is new hotness.

Its not just how "steel" works. Apple does it with their own products.
Click to expand...

first off, gorillas are apes, not monkeys ;) ...other than that, i couldn't agree more. i still use some of the old steels like 440c and A2 a fair bit and for the right application, i'd take them over a lot of the new "Vunderschteel".

and Balls Deep... i don't think people ever choose D2 for it's toughness characteristics, and often times they pick AUS-8 for that very reason. D2 is primarily known for it's aggressive cutting with those huge chainsaw like carbides
 
So hard, toothy cutting, not tough. Good for cardboard and insulation, fine paper cutting and such not so much?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top