Goths & blades???

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Joy Division rocks!! Well not in the usual sense, but you know what I mean.
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This thread is bringing back lots of memories. I can remember when the term Goth was not so common. We were all just punk rockers then. I used to wear tons of black (though it was too damn hot in the summer) and combat boots all the time. Listened to The Damned, Bauhaus, Joy Division, Skinny Puppy, 45Grave, Killing Joke, the Cure, the Cramps (one of my favorite bands, period), plus tons of hardcore, synth stuff, punkabilly, cowpunk, and so on.

Yes, I have toned my look down a bit, though in reality fashion caught up to me. I used to get so much crap for wearing combat boots, or engineers, but now everybody wears big boots. I just don't walk around in my "Nazi Punks F**k Off!" t-shirt like I used to. I was certainly harrassed by the law enough, for how I looked. Try explaining to a cop, in say 1985, that you are a straight edge, and they just tell you to touch your nose for the hundredth time!!
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I'm basically the same person now that I was then, and still listen to the same music, though I listen to a greater variety of stuff now (what would I do without Bluegrass and Reggae?). It's interesting to see all the other things that knife knuts have in common, and how many people "toned things down" so that they could carry knives without being hassled.

Bela Lugosi was a teenage goo goo muk!

Paul
 
WTF is the definition of a Goth???

I'm 42 and must have missed this one.....

Michael

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He who has smelt the smoke is never free again...
 
Well, solid_soldier, what you are most likely gonna find here at BFC (as you are now learning) are either former "scenesters", or folks that kinda keep an eye on it all still--but don't bother to label themselves anymore... As for myself, well, I'm 30 now, and I attended my first hardcore show at the age of 15 (The BAD BRAINS), and ran through/hung out in all the different subcultural facets of "the NYC scene" till my mid-to-late 20's...I still wear black, although the cut of my clothing and general look is more subtle now than when I was a Doc Marten-wearing teen (I think it's more a New York thing, actually), and I still listen to "the hits"--hell, I was listening to Black Flag, Iggy, The Sisters Of Mercy, and the Swans' THE BURNING WORLD album in the car just a day or so ago...and I just picked up the Joy Division boxed set...LOL!

Hmmm, who says you can't wear black, listen to cool tunes, and enjoy a good knife or three? Or train in bladework, etc...I've done all the above for years!
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Take care and be well...

~bayani~

 
I don't think anyone is knocking wearing black. Besides, black is one of my favourite colours! Some still wear it and identify with the gothic lifestyle, and I say more power to them. It's like being into knives. Many people frown on them (until they need one), but I love them. I still listen to old stuff like The Chameleons U.K., Echo & The Bunnymen, Joy Division/New Order, Cocteau Twins, Dead Can Dance, This Mortal Coil, Clan of Xymox, Xmal-Deutschland and the like. I don't have any regrets about it. It's just that I have always been into knives and I think many will agree that knives will still be around in one form or another while other scenes will go the way of the dinosaur.

By the way, Cerulean. If you still like the Cocteau Twins, check out A Gothic Tribute to The Cocteau Twins on Cleopatra Records.


[This message has been edited by el cid (edited 05-08-2001).]
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by C4:
WTF is the definition of a Goth???

I'm 42 and must have missed this one.....

Michael

</font>
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C4, What is a Goth? Well, a Goth is a member of either two Germanic tribes that overran the Roman Empire. The Visigoths and the Ostrogoths. The Romanized Visigoths eventually settled in Northern Spain and gave rise to the Christian kingdoms that battled the Moors. Other than that, a goth is also a member of the gothic subculture which identifies itself, by wearing, (primarily) black clothing and listens to a genre of music labelled "Gothic" which can actually have a wide range of styles. Also, they are particularly fond of Gothic literature and films and anything dark, mysterious, gloomy, ethereal, medieval, and otherwise fond of general melancholia.

[This message has been edited by el cid (edited 05-09-2001).]
 
Balisongs arent really that sinister. Compare my BM42 to one of those hunting bowies and I think that will change
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I have a sword in my pocket!
 
I used to listen to The Cure all of the time, and occassionally I still do. Nowadays I lean more towards Nine Inch Nails and Tori Amos. I was into Goth a bit during my late teens, but that was back in the mid-eighties. I've watched the movie The Crow perhaps a hundred times, so maybe I still have Goth tendencies; in fact I have a pet crow named "Draven" which was named after Brandon Lee's character in The Crow "Eric Draven". Knives were part of my life then, and even more of my life now. I appreciate life's light now as well as it's darkness, whereas before I used to embrace all that was dark. Perhaps this is because my wife is very light, and she rubs off on me.
Two of my favorite lines from "The Crow" still ring true;
"Buildings burn, people die, but True Love lasts forever."
and
"It can't rain all of the time."
 
This thread was greatly unexpected.
I have always enjoyed Goth music, and many of the bands previously mentioned are still favorites of mine. Although I never fully dressed in the traditional Goth sense, my attitude was undeniably in alignment with all of my Goth friends. (I do admit to a preponderance of black clothing, however...)
I am now a "professional", whatever that means, and cannot realistically show my inner feelings via couture (the clothes I wear) or brash voicings. But I always carry my knife. It seems to be the last vestige of my younger self.
Every time another colleague at work realizes that I have a knife (Among my favorites is a Nemesis that I modified by putting a clip on so I could attach it to my trousers. Yes, I actually use it for everyday tasks.
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) they seem shocked. I argue that it is there for utility's sake, but they know better somehow. It is my attitude clipped to my pocket. A statement.
How Goth is that?
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-Compact
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[This message has been edited by Compact (edited 05-08-2001).]
 
I would really appreciate a bit more information, if someone could provide it. Thanks for the definition of Goth. However, it didn't include the mentioned fascination with knives. Could somebody explain that link?

Also, could definitions for "metal head" and "ska'? I think I have a handle on punk -- well at least a bit. The way metal head was mentioned it somehow sounded as if that was primarily a musical preference. Is that accurate? I'd at least heard that term before, but "ska" has me completely flummoxed. Sorry, but am a decade or two ahead of most of the respondents to this thread, and my children tell me nothing of modern mores.

Is there any succinct writing about the Goths? I don't want to do a research project, but they fascinate me. Guess that is because of many interludes in my life of one level of depression or another. I know I could do a search, and will if no answers, but would like a knifeknuts twist on things, if possible.

Thanks in advance,


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Asi es la vida

Bugs
 
There's a more negative side to this we haven't really explored, though. There's a large chunk of teens who consider themselves "goths" who are easily defined as people who enjoy making "normal" people think they're spooky and sinister. The white-face-painted, spiked-dog-collar-wearing Marilyn Manson crowd (who seem to have disappeared from the local malls, now that Eminem is the current outrage-fave) fit into this category. (The Saturday Night Live skit, "Goth Chat," or whatever it's called, always reminds of me of those folks.)

A tendency to carry and "flash" knives would go hand-in-hand with this spin on the "Goth" subculture, and indeed, I've met people like this, who certainly are no friends to Knife People (in either their demeanor or their attitude).

I'm glad to see that those folks aren't all there is to this particular subculture, but they're out there.

-Razor

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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.
 
Bugs - Metal head does indeed refer to music. It's used to refer to fans of heavy metal (they can be a bit fanatical, as can most other music lovers). Please don't anyone say "But it's not music". It is music, just not to your taste.

"Ska" is short for skater/s This is another subculture, but one of which i am largely unaware, since i long ago decided that i would look rather foolish on a skateboard.

A large number of my friends are semi goths, NOT of the spiked collar/white face/manson variety. The black often begins because of depression, and that depression begins to tint all perceptions. That's how it was for me, and my friends.

I believe that the reference to knives has several drawing points. As indicated, quite a few goths are interested in days gone by, and a part of this is the weaponry used in those times. Another thought is that goths are often looked down on and victimised by other portions of society. My friends have politely turned down more offers to fight than i can remember, and showed people who were more insistent why it's a bad idea to mix with 8 guys who have amongst them 4 black belts, 3 weightlifters, a powerlifter, and two knife knuts. We do everything reasonably possible to avoid confrontation, but sometimes it's inescapable.

I had one close friend who chose to take his own life, and used a knife to do it. I've not let this have an impact on my love for knives, Although i have to admit that every time a friend asks for a knife, somewhere in my subconcious a voice tells me to say no. I'm not saying a majority of goths are suicidal, in fact, it would be a tiny minority. These depressed individuals may have a certin fascination with knives which is completely unhealthy.


Hope i've helped, and not upset any of you old timers too much
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James

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My Home Page (writings)

The beast we are, lest the beast we become.
 
James. I dont know about Australia, but here "ska" is a type of music combining punk, reggae and big band brass. Example-The Mighty, Mighty Bosstones. Razoredj is right about this new breed of of so called goth who roam the malls with silly makeup and Marilyn Manson(not goth) shirts.

[This message has been edited by samhell (edited 05-09-2001).]
 
Bugs3x, the term ska refers to a style of Jamaican music which was popular in Britain during the 60's. The music was favoured by the Mod movement of the time as was R&B, Motown and bands like The Who and The Small Faces. It was also favoured by the skinheads who evolved from the Mod scene, although these skinheads were not the neo-nazi type found today. In the late 70's and early 80's, the music re-surfaced again due to the Mod & skinhead revival at the time. Nowadays the ska influence can be heard in bands like Smashmouth, No Doubt, The Bosstones and the like.
James does have a point about Goths and their fascination with ancient times, and that may account for the fact that many like knives, swords and other medieval weaponry.

[This message has been edited by el cid (edited 05-09-2001).]
 
Razoredj, I have seen these "kids" as well. They like to parade around malls freeking people out trying to emulate Marilyn Manson and then you see them a week later wearing Eminem t-shirts. I don't take them seriously, but unfortunately I saw one of these idiots, who must have been 13 years of age in a mall parking lot pull out a cheap discount store knife and pretend to be cutting off his tongue while dancing around looking like a complete dork. This is the kind of rubbish we don't need.
 
I see kids like that all the time at the malls here in STL and most of them are in grade schools. I think that most people outgrow it in one way or another. My highschool only had about 3 or 4 people who claimed the lifestyle. Where I attend school now, there are only 1 or 2 people that I have seen out of 10,000. But overall, Goths only have shock value. Once you have seen one, you aren't surprised anymore. It's the same principle why Eminem is popular. It's new and it's way different.
Matt

[This message has been edited by Jazzman (edited 05-09-2001).]
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by el cid:
Bugs3x, the term ska refers to a style of Jamaican music which was popular in Britain during the 60's. The music was favoured by the Mod movement of the time as was R&B, Motown and bands like The Who and The Small Faces. It was also favoured by the skinheads who evolved from the Mod scene, although these skinheads were not the neo-nazi type found today. In the late 70's and early 80's, the music re-surfaced again due to the Mod & skinhead revival at the time. Nowadays the ska influence can be heard in bands like Smashmouth, No Doubt, The Bosstones and the like.
James does have a point about Goths and their fascination with ancient times, and that may account for the fact that many like knives, swords and other medieval weaponry.

[This message has been edited by el cid (edited 05-09-2001).]</font>
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El cid's got it right. Ska, rock steady, dance hall, reggae, et al are all Jamaican music styles. Ska was really popular with white kids in GB, as el cid said. There is and was a lot of cross over between punk and ska, just as there is/was with punk and metal. For some English Ska check out The Specials, early English Beat, and early Madness (just to name a few). An excellent American ska band is The Toasters.

Bob Marley was in a ska band, before he turned rasta and started the Wailers.

As far as the attention starved Goths go...I think this is a result of the media popularizing this group in movies and TV. All the people I knew, years ago, who fit the Goth description were the type to not want any attention. Usually very smart, introverted, and serious. As these little subcultures become more well know there are more posers and hangers-on that start adopting the look, for the sake of the look. It used to be that you could go to a hardcore show in this country, and it was almost like a little club meeting. Everyone knew the score. The pit was fun, and if someone fell, they were usually yanked up to their feet before they knew what happened. If some moron did happen to think that slam dancing was all about hurting people or throwing punches, they were quickly shown the error of their ways by the crowd. As more and more people started hearing about hardcore, the posers and the morons became more and more prominent. I started seeing people trying to hurt little teenage punker girls in the pit. I personally showed some of these little cretins the error of their ways. These "look at me" goth kids are the same type of moronic posers. They don't have any idea what they're doing, they just want to look weird. (I know some of people think that's what all youth subculture groups are doing, but it's deeper than that.)

Paul

 
This is for those asking about Goth culture. It is a pretty decent explanation, though I'm sure some people would disagree with some of it. The History part at the bottom is pretty accurate.

http://www.goth.net/goth.html

Paul

I suppose it's just a matter of time before our ever vigilant moderator locks this one or moves it.

Please move this thread instead of shutting it down like you did the "Usual Suspects?" thread.



[This message has been edited by Paul Davidson (edited 05-09-2001).]
 
Paul is correct about slam dancing, and subcultures in general. And yes, this thread should probably be moved to Community.
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Ska is great stuff -- check out 2 tone like the Specials, Madness, the Selecter, English Beat, and others; bands like the Crazy 8s, Skankin' Pickle, Operation Ivy, Voodoo Glow Skulls, Dance Hall Crashers, Sublime, hell, even some Clash tracks sound distinctly ska-ish. Mmm. Sudden urge to go put local rude boy compilation on CD and drink beer in the sun.
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The posers with bad makeup and Marilyn Manson lunchboxes ("Spooky Kids") are ridiculed by the Goth community in general. El Cid is exactly correct -- soon they will be into "gangsta rap" or "acid country" or whatever their parents hate that week. Just ignore them. They hate that.

My Goth friends are amongst the nicest people I know. I had the good fortune to attend the Whitby festival in Yorkshire a few years ago with one of them, and it was a blast. It was the autumn fancy dress one, too, so I got to see a LOT of fascinating methods of dress. Crimped hair, complicated corsetry, light-up T-shirts, glow-in-the-dark bondage harnesses, high-heeled boots, and enough make-up to keep Urban Decay in business for eternity. And those were the GUYS.
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Goths and non-goths alike should check out this <a href="http://anon.razorwire.com/real-goth-faq/" target="_blank">FAQ</a> as well, it's hysterical.
 
Paul, I agree with you.The Goths I knew and still know were and are quiet, introvertive, highly intelligent individials interested in music, art, poetry, history. Not the poseur types you see on the Jerry Springer of Jenny Jones show. This type of thing happens in every sub-culture. The same thing happens to knife enthusiasts. There are a few bad seeds out there that give is all a bad name.

[This message has been edited by el cid (edited 05-09-2001).]
 
Hey Kids!
I hate to say it, but I'm 44 and only recently got into the whole Goth/Industrial/Electronic music scene.
All the groups that were previously mentioned are excellent (specially Skinny Puppy and Joy Division). But I can't believe no one mentioned the Legendary Pink Dots. Anybody else hear of them?
Lenny
 
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