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Grand Unified Edge Test Chart?
- Thread starter Geneh2001
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Chronovore
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Not trying to be duplicative, but this particular article by Larrin Thomas is probably the best guide to knife steels you're going to find anywhere:
Knife Steels Rated by a Metallurgist - Toughness, Edge Retention, and Corrosion Resistance - Knife Steel Nerds
Steel Metallurgist Larrin Thomas uses tests of knife steels to rate the steels and explains the factors that control performance.knifesteelnerds.com
This is good info but remember that Larrin tested those steels in his blades with his heat treatment. How well that models actual production knives depends on how close they are on heat treatment and edge geometry. For instance, notice that his results show 8Cr13Mov, 14C28N, and Nitro-V as both all equal and all worse than 440A.
Hop over to BladeHQ and buy any three production knives in each of those steels. Will Larrin's results describe the performance you'll get? Probably not...
Well, I checked it out, and came away with this:
"I will be using completely objective criteria for rating the various steel rating articles, just like the authors of the steel rating articles. I have rated their articles based on my own experiences, steel datasheets, and how I feel this morning. I even used gradients for my bars." [ref: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/09/03/ranking-the-steel-ranking-articles/]
Good article, way too deep for a single sitting.
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I'm sure you're aware of Pete from the Cedric and Ada Youtube channel. He also does rope cuts, but instead of measuring pressure he stops when a blade can no longer cleanly slice paper. His results are a pretty good match to Larrin's. And of course he's using commercial knives. Here's his results spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...L9yUHhUmDLAP1hJ1dN_0q5G4tug/edit#gid=43566811
Chronovore
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I like Pete. He provides a valuable service and he makes it fun.
I also like Outpost 76. His method uses a taped-off section of blade against cardboard, sharpened the same way to 15dps on a KME, sharpened multiple times and tested between sharpening to reach statistically repeatable results when possible. That last part has been helpful in demonstrating how steel near the factory edge can be fatigued on a lot of knives. He differentiates between loss of fine edge and working edge, which is nice since sharpness isn't binary. The videos also talk about sharpening the samples, other issues, and sometimes additional types of testing.
His numbers appear on this spreadsheet along with reported data from Super Steel Steve and Tom Hosang Outdoors.
Google Sheets: Sign-in
Access Google Sheets with a personal Google account or Google Workspace account (for business use).
docs.google.com
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I, also, enjoy Cedric and Ada and Outpost 76. And Michael Christy. However, these edge retention tests become a little mindless after a while. The other stuff that these guys talk about is more interesting to me. Michael Christy, for example, is so into sharpening, he's like the Buddha of Abrasives. It's a little scary. Maybe he should reconsider his Starbucks intake.
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But there's no doubt that good sharpening skills can lessen the relative importance of edge retention...
I too, follow Cedric and Ada and Outpost 76, and I can relate to the real-world-ish testing with all the variables. And as you guys said, sharpening techniques and skills make all the difference.
I guess there's not a good way to throw together a matrix or grid chart that would help compare the testing results of these guys. Just too much info that has to be considered.
I guess there's not a good way to throw together a matrix or grid chart that would help compare the testing results of these guys. Just too much info that has to be considered.
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This is why I personally believe that steels like 52100 and cruwear should be held in higher regard than they are. Despite not being exotic like your maxamets and k390’s, they are extremely forgiving to sharpen for an average user, and require lower skill (and less expensive sharpening setups) to get the most out of.
Additionally, custom makers can run those steels at extreme hardnesses (64-65 hrc) and have extreme edge thinness with reasonable toughness.
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I think people exaggerate the difficulty of sharpening wear-resistant steels. They really aren't much more difficult than budget steels as long as you have diamond plates or stones, which can be had for as little as $20, and under $100 for a set of bench-sized plates.
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I agree. I've touched up my S90V blades with the same stuff that I use to whip my D2 and 154 CM blades into shape.
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To each their own, but going into diamond abrasives really has a cost associated with it. Sure, you can get diamond plates, but I find them to leave an extremely ugly scratch pattern. Now resin bonded stones exist which solve that issue, but those are much more expensive. The cheapest ones are the venevs (which I use), but the venevs definitely lack in cutting power and require cleaning often in order to release the metal caught up in the resin binder. If you want the aggressiveness of diamond plates combined with the amazing scratch pattern and longevity of resin bonded stones, the super vitrified stones are fantastic, but most people are not going to be able to afford that.
I personally find cruwear to be basically the perfect mix of hardness, wear resistance, toughness, corrosion resistance and sharpenability. But I also fully recognize that the “sweet spot” for everyone is different. Cruwear wont ever be the “perfect” steel for everyone.
I have a David Mary in LC200n and have had a native LW in S30v and LC200n. I would consider the edge retention to be really close to S30v in the Spyderco. A bit better in the David Mary.
I've not considered, "hard to sharpen," a reason for downgrading (as some folks do) a high-edge-retention steel. As you said, the equipment is different, but IMO that's about it. If I'm going to spend the $$$ for those exotic blades, hopefully I understand ahead of time the tools required to bring the edge back.
The best I have right now is a Cold Steel mini (fixed) in 3V for backpacking. Happy to find it's really tough, a little disappointed in edge retention.
The best I have right now is a Cold Steel mini (fixed) in 3V for backpacking. Happy to find it's really tough, a little disappointed in edge retention.
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That's 3V. It's known for being one of the toughest steels out there, but not great for edge retention. Should strop back very well, though, and because of its superior edge stability, you could go with a low dps which would improve edge retention.
Agreed, it's exaggerated quite a bit. I finished two knives to hair popping sharpness, one in S30V and one in M390, on a plain old Smith's Tri-Hone Aluminum Oxide/Arkansas. With some patience and time I don't think diamonds or ceramics are even necessary until very fine grits, but they sure make life easier. Once you leave the production realm and reach HRC 65+ things change a bit.
Edge failure comes in many forms. The rope and cardboard cutting tests do a good job of testing wear resistance, but do little to assess impact resistance. This is a nearly ideal test for an EDC folder or a small fixed blade set up for fine cutting, but on a knife set up for chopping or hard use these tests make a knife seem like it's deficient when it's not.
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As I said in another recent post, I have stopped paying attention to any spec/comparison charts and testing. They are baselines at best.
Unless you are me, using MY specific knife, with a specific heat treat, with a specific edge geometry, and cutting specific material with a specific force - these tests and comparisons are meaningless. No offense to Larrin.
As an example, all 1095 is NOT the same. Not even close. Two different knives from two different makers will perform completely differently with regards to "toughness" and "edge retention" depending upon grind, edge geometry, heat treat, material being cut (and the force required to do so) - EVEN IF THEY ARE BOTH 1095 STEEL.
The only valid information in comparative charts may be corrosion resistance - and even that is subject to many variables depending upon the user's location with regards to humidity, and amount of salinity (salt) or other contaminants (pollution) in the air.
Unless you are me, using MY specific knife, with a specific heat treat, with a specific edge geometry, and cutting specific material with a specific force - these tests and comparisons are meaningless. No offense to Larrin.
As an example, all 1095 is NOT the same. Not even close. Two different knives from two different makers will perform completely differently with regards to "toughness" and "edge retention" depending upon grind, edge geometry, heat treat, material being cut (and the force required to do so) - EVEN IF THEY ARE BOTH 1095 STEEL.
The only valid information in comparative charts may be corrosion resistance - and even that is subject to many variables depending upon the user's location with regards to humidity, and amount of salinity (salt) or other contaminants (pollution) in the air.
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Larrin
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The same steel will also vary between knives for corrosion resistance. The heat treatment and surface finish will affect the resistance to rusting.
I use DMT diamond stones for my sharpening, not expensive at all. I've had no problem getting Spyderco's S110V and M4 to be much sharper than what I need for my normal use. My most recent sharpening has been Spyderco Rex45. The stones felt much different on it. I hear people talk about checking steel to see if it's hardened by letting a file skate over it, well this how the diamond stones sounded on the Rex45. However they did sharpen it and it didn't take too long.
That's my impression- it's not an exact science. I don't know how much variation there is in metallurgy from one sample to another, but I'm sure there is difference in how different blades are manufactured, ground, sharpened. There is difference in edge angle and blade thickness behind the edge. Certainly there is variation in heat treatment, and sharpening by the user. Then the testing is not exact. There is probably some variation in the test medium and the accuracy of the machines. It boggles my mind to think of what it would take to generate the ultimate chart. So if one chart says S110V is better and another chart says S90V is better, well which one can you believe? I'm sure the user can't tell the difference. I try to read too much into the charts, the user should use them as a general guide when comparing blades of different steels.
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