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- May 2, 2002
- Messages
- 407
OK, first attempt at a review here, constructive criticism welcome!
John Greco Falcon Folder Review
by Mongrel
This knife is one of John's "Birds of Prey" series heavy duty folders. As far as I know these particular Greco knives (and many of his other designs) are only available through CQC Knives-www.cqcknives.com. I have not found these folders anywhere else on the internet. Apparently CQC is the direct line to John Greco's work online as there is a direct link to John Greco Knives web page (which is currently under construction) from the CQC website. Mr. Greco's physical shop is in Greensburg Kentucky.
I first read about John Greco in the March 1999 issue of Tactical Knives. He was featured in a Blademaster Profile article. Six of John's designs were shown including the MST and Companion models which were tested for the article. At the time John was using A2 steel and Cocobola wood handles on these models (micarta was an option I believe). These were the original .25" stock variations, which currently are offered in .210"-8670 steel and culinary grade Micarta. I remember thinking at the time "now that's a knife!" Unfortunately circumstances precluded me from buying one.
Flash forward to May 2002; while purusing the "Customs For Sale" forum at Blade Forums I clicked a link for a John Greco MST II Mk-5, which I was able to purchase. This was followed by an Ebay search which led to an apparently non-current model which was listed as "Fighter #1 with jigged bone handles". Jigged bone? Yup-you know I had to have that one as well. This put me in a bit of a feeding frenzy for Greco knives which ultimately led to finding CQC Knives and this unbelievable post-Bladeshow sale they are currently running (only to July 9 though, better hurry!). Well the rest is history as they say.
Okay, enough jimmer jammer....onto the knife!
NOTE: Here is a link to several pictures and comparisons of the Falcon to other current folders.
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291741105
Falcon Specifications:
Blade length: 3 3/8"
Overall length: 8 1/4"
Blade thickness: .210" (same as John's latest FB's!)
Weight: 4 oz.
Blade steel: 8670-8670 steel is a chrome / nickel alloy carbon steel from Germany. The contents are .71 - 1& nickel, .3 - .5% chrome, and .75% carbon. The RC on the edge is 58, and the spine is almost dead soft to provide flexibility. I find the steel easier to sharpen, and it holds an edge longer. That is one of the reasons that John switched from 5160 and A2. Also because his supply of A2 ran out.
Hollow ground, thumb stud, frame\integral lock (with ball and detent), adjustable pivot (need a wrench!), 3/16" lanyard hole.
Initial impressions gained from the description and photos were good:
Aesthetically pleasing (to me any way), nice lines(very straight forward, reminds me of a Sebenza), great blade shape and design. I was just able to see how slender this knife was from the online catalog pictures. Frame lock, all 8670 tool steel construction. Reasonable blade length. The knife came with a nylon sheath, but no pocket clip(which did not concern me too much), but only one thumb stud(two would have been nice). Overall a perfect representation of what a Greco folder should be. This was a knife that looked like it was designed and built for hard work!
But wait, what is this? Just below the photo's of the Birds of Prey folders was an explanation\disclaimer. Hmmmm....
Basically, there was an explanation of how these folders are stiff, but after working them awhile they will loosen up. Also, that the frame lock used on these folders was made to be STRONG and therefore would at first be stiff also. Pretty straight forward HONEST warning about the design and function of these knives ( I found this explanation to be fair, accurate, and truthful in describing the knife that I purchased).
But I wonder how bad it could be? I hit the 'BUY' key and sat back to wait...
Package ARRIVES!!!-
Companion? CHECK
Fox Fighter? CHECK
Falcon? CHECK
OK so far.....
Knives were well packed, shipping was very fast and reasonable, and even though the Fox Fighter was back-ordered knives came within a week. Knives come in a sealed plastic bag with sheaths. No boxes here-("boxes? we don't need no stinkin' boxes!")no problem with that.
After carefully slitting the bag open I pulled the minty fresh Falcon out. Looked it over, oppppennnneddddd it. Man, they weren't kidding "stiff"! As I extended the blade out fully I heard the frame lock catch-CLICK-I knew this was the most solid lock-up I'd ever heard. The sound reminded me of the sound a well made revolver makes when you cock it. I pushed on the frame lock to close it annnnddddd hmmmmmmrrrrpppphhhh-believe me, it was a sheer act of testosterone to convince my thumb that it could be done. Man this sucker is tight! Hopefully as stated above it would loosen up. But more on this later...
Edge\Grind\Finish\Assembly
The knife would shave out of the bag, but not without some effort. Remember-this is a very thick blade (.210") for a folder, and the edge profile reflects this. It is more of a working edge rather than a slicing type edge. Grind lines were all good. Finish was a combination of John's G1 gray (blade), and his new black UV polyester powder coat (frame). Both of which were very well done as I have come to expect from my other Greco's and from what I have read.
At this point I noticed something I thought was a bit peculiar. When the blade folded into the handle there was a distinctive bend in it as you moved toward the tip. So much so that the side of the blade apx 1 1/8" back from the tip actually made contact with the non-lock side frame. What was causing this? Was it the frame lock pressing against the blade? No, doesn't appear to be. Are washers pushing it over-No. Was it ground fat on one side-no the blade is perfectly symetrical at that point. What does the straight edge say? By placing a steel straight edge against the blade on both sides just under the thumb stud, there is a distictive 'bow' in the blade. The left side (edge down) is about 1/16" away from the straight edge at the tip. The right side opens up to a fat 1/8" way from the straight edge at the tip. Not a major problem I guess-just kind of odd. I have heard it said that a strong frame lock will push a blade out like that. Or even a misaligned pivot maybe. But by laying the straight edge across the flat on the sides of the blade, it removes any issue involving the assembly of the knife or the frame lock. Just to be 100% sure, I disassemble the knife (yea, you CAN TAKE APART YOUR GRECO! They even give you the hex wrench to do it.) and measured the full blade sans handles and thumbstud. Same results. And I can assure you this knife is not unevenly ground. What do I think happend? Well first and foremost-I am not any kind of an expert in this, or even a knifemaker, so I can only guess. My thinking is that when the makers mark was struck into the side of the blade it may have caused enough downward pressure to 'bow' the blade slightly. I have spoken with other Falcon\Grifon owners who have this same characteristic in their blades and they all seem to bend the same way. I am open to theories\suggestions on this as I have no real explanation for it, just a gut feeling. Every other area of assembly was top notch with no other discernable problems, defects, or blemishes.
But Mongrel HOW DID IT CUT?
OK, OK....
I have only had opportunity to cut paper, cardboard, building grade lumber, rope, and to hack at some old skids at my job. It cut everything without a problem, though it is more suited to 'heavy-duty' cutting\puncturing than detailed work. This was all with the 'factory' edge. It is a little thick to be as good a cardboard slicer as say my Benchmade AFCK or my Buck 110; but it will slice cardboard. It does a bit better on wood. And by adding a lanyard, I was able to use it as a fairly capable 'chopper'. Something I would not even think about doing with my other folders, and even some of my fixed blades! The weight, profile, and thickness of the blade all add up to no problem for using it in this manner. One area where it did shine was using it to split 3/8" to 1/2" boards for 'kindling'. Normally one would be hesitant to use a small or thin blade when doing this type of work-especially a folder-but I had no problem using the Falcon to do this. One major advantage to the Falcon is it's blade thickness-I DO NOT FEAR BENDING THE TIP! As much as I love my BM AFCK, I never put it to heavy use at the tip, because it is so thin. In fact, I have a slight bend in it now and I have never come close to pushing it.
Cutting update 7/2: I received an Entrek 'Destroyer' on Thursday. After deciding that I would keep it, I took it out into the yard for some 'testing'. Chopping up 2x6's and hacking at some green vegetation (oak and sassafras mainly). Well seeing how my Falcon was 'in pocket'... ....why not?
It was no problem to use the Falcon to split some spruce building lumber up. I just used a 2x3 as a hammer and away I went. With the grain it took about 2 taps and it split right open. I then hammered it thru going against the grain ! I had to hammer it all the way thru this way-but it did it. I have pics if anyone would really be that interested. There was not one bit of noticable damage or even effect on the knife. Everything stayed tight. Only thing was that the blade showed where it had run down the length 2x6.
Another proof-positive of the toughness of this folder.
Oh...BTW...did I mention it makes a decent thrower also......
I am now at the point where it needs to be touched up, and I am considering experimenting with the back-bevel feature of my Sharpmaker to thin it out a little at the same time. I will follow this up with more cutting tests of this knife. (note: 6/17/02-put it on the Sharpmaker today-shaves just fine and is cutting as well as the AFCK mentioned above. I did try my hand at using a 30' bevel, but honestly can't tell if it made a difference or not!...).
That's all well and good Mongrel, but can you open it and close it without breaking a nail?
Well, here we are back to this main issue with this folder. Does it every break in, as described by CQC?
Yes, yes, and a thousand time yes! This has been my personal experience: after about 4 days of using it as an EDC, and sitting mindlessly 'working the blade'-back and forth, back and forth, it started to 'feel' good and loosen up nicely. Now after almost two weeks it is even better. I don't like this type of knife to be "flicka loose" ( I stole that from someone else, but it does describe it well) so I am used to my 'heavy duty' folders being a little 'slow'. I don't like a loose pivot or any blade play so for me it is good. To others, it may be that this knife never gets fast or smooth enough-to that I can only say "to each his own". The Falcon continues to get smoother by the day, including the frame lock (which is still very tight, but that is how I prefer my locks anyway). I CAN unlock it one handed-but usually I use two hands. It has been suggested that the handle be cut back to give better access to the lock. I disagree with this, because I feel that when too much of a liner\frame type lock is exposed the greater the risk of lock failure becomes. I have had production liner-locks disengage just from hand pressure at this part of the grip. Another great thing about this knive is the tight ball and detent set-up, there is absolutely NO WAY this knife is going to inadvertently open up on you! I absolutely trust this knife not to open up or close up on me. It is my #1 Least Likely Lock to Fail knife.
Two recommendations for Falcon\Grifon owners here:
1. Do not push against the thumbstud at a right angle to the frame (perpendicular). Push against the thumbstud away from you and out towards the tip! It took me two days to realize, that by changing WHERE I pushed against the thumbstud I could cut my opening problems by at least 75% if not more!
2. Try to think of this knife as a 'one handed' opener, and a two handed 'closer' at least until the knife loosens up more.
How does it carry?
SHEATH-
The Falcon does not come with the obligatory pocket clip that seems to grow from 90% of the folders made today. It comes with a sheath and a 3/16" lanyard hole. The nylon sheath is marked "E.D.C. PRODUCTS" but I can't tell where it is made because the small tag has been cut off. Suffice to say, we are not talking about a "Blade-Tec" product here, but it isn't a piece of junk either. It is designed for two positition carry-vertical or horizontal, which I thought was a nice touch. The inside of the nylon has some type of 'rubberized coating' also. It closes via hook and loop fastener which is as secure as any other of this type. Knife fits the sheath well. As the overall length of the Falcon closed is 4 3/4" it is well served by carrying it in a sheath.
POCKET-
I found that I could comfortably carry the Falcon in-pocket by attaching a leather thong to the lanyard hole (see pictures) and allowing it to hang over the outside of my pocket. This way the knife was kept from slipping all the way down into the bottom of the pocket where it tends to be a little too obvious and uncomfortable. The leather thong also made it easy to draw the knife from the pocket quickly. This also worked when carrying it in my back pocket, however I get a little nervous when carrying 'unclipped' knives in a back pocket (fear of losing it ) so I only carried it there around the house and yard.
NOTES ON DISASSEMBLY ADDED 7/2:
I had to use a 1/4" open end wrench. I could just barely grab the sides of the SS insert hex head. It was enough for me to break the pivot screw loose.
To Summarize-
I really like this knife! It reminds me of the tools that Craftsman used to make 30 years ago-what they lacked in 'beauty' they sure as hell made up for in toughness and usability. I could honestly carry the Falcon as an EDC (as I have been), and would rate it over several of my high $ production folders best value, toughness, and quality of materials factor. I will definately push this knife harder than any other folder I own. In almost two weeks use I've yet to scratch or mar the G1 finish in anyway-and this includes driving the knife through the bottom of a Maxwell house coffee can! If you are into industrial tough folders that can be used, maintained, sharpened, and carried easily I recommend you take a good look at the Greco Birds of Prey series available at:
www.cqcknives.com
GRECO KNIVES
John Greco
100 Mattie Jones Rd.
Greensburg, KY
42743
270-932-3335
John Greco Falcon Folder Review
by Mongrel
This knife is one of John's "Birds of Prey" series heavy duty folders. As far as I know these particular Greco knives (and many of his other designs) are only available through CQC Knives-www.cqcknives.com. I have not found these folders anywhere else on the internet. Apparently CQC is the direct line to John Greco's work online as there is a direct link to John Greco Knives web page (which is currently under construction) from the CQC website. Mr. Greco's physical shop is in Greensburg Kentucky.
I first read about John Greco in the March 1999 issue of Tactical Knives. He was featured in a Blademaster Profile article. Six of John's designs were shown including the MST and Companion models which were tested for the article. At the time John was using A2 steel and Cocobola wood handles on these models (micarta was an option I believe). These were the original .25" stock variations, which currently are offered in .210"-8670 steel and culinary grade Micarta. I remember thinking at the time "now that's a knife!" Unfortunately circumstances precluded me from buying one.
Flash forward to May 2002; while purusing the "Customs For Sale" forum at Blade Forums I clicked a link for a John Greco MST II Mk-5, which I was able to purchase. This was followed by an Ebay search which led to an apparently non-current model which was listed as "Fighter #1 with jigged bone handles". Jigged bone? Yup-you know I had to have that one as well. This put me in a bit of a feeding frenzy for Greco knives which ultimately led to finding CQC Knives and this unbelievable post-Bladeshow sale they are currently running (only to July 9 though, better hurry!). Well the rest is history as they say.
Okay, enough jimmer jammer....onto the knife!
NOTE: Here is a link to several pictures and comparisons of the Falcon to other current folders.
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291741105
Falcon Specifications:
Blade length: 3 3/8"
Overall length: 8 1/4"
Blade thickness: .210" (same as John's latest FB's!)
Weight: 4 oz.
Blade steel: 8670-8670 steel is a chrome / nickel alloy carbon steel from Germany. The contents are .71 - 1& nickel, .3 - .5% chrome, and .75% carbon. The RC on the edge is 58, and the spine is almost dead soft to provide flexibility. I find the steel easier to sharpen, and it holds an edge longer. That is one of the reasons that John switched from 5160 and A2. Also because his supply of A2 ran out.
Hollow ground, thumb stud, frame\integral lock (with ball and detent), adjustable pivot (need a wrench!), 3/16" lanyard hole.
Initial impressions gained from the description and photos were good:
Aesthetically pleasing (to me any way), nice lines(very straight forward, reminds me of a Sebenza), great blade shape and design. I was just able to see how slender this knife was from the online catalog pictures. Frame lock, all 8670 tool steel construction. Reasonable blade length. The knife came with a nylon sheath, but no pocket clip(which did not concern me too much), but only one thumb stud(two would have been nice). Overall a perfect representation of what a Greco folder should be. This was a knife that looked like it was designed and built for hard work!
But wait, what is this? Just below the photo's of the Birds of Prey folders was an explanation\disclaimer. Hmmmm....
Basically, there was an explanation of how these folders are stiff, but after working them awhile they will loosen up. Also, that the frame lock used on these folders was made to be STRONG and therefore would at first be stiff also. Pretty straight forward HONEST warning about the design and function of these knives ( I found this explanation to be fair, accurate, and truthful in describing the knife that I purchased).
But I wonder how bad it could be? I hit the 'BUY' key and sat back to wait...
Package ARRIVES!!!-
Companion? CHECK
Fox Fighter? CHECK
Falcon? CHECK
OK so far.....
Knives were well packed, shipping was very fast and reasonable, and even though the Fox Fighter was back-ordered knives came within a week. Knives come in a sealed plastic bag with sheaths. No boxes here-("boxes? we don't need no stinkin' boxes!")no problem with that.
After carefully slitting the bag open I pulled the minty fresh Falcon out. Looked it over, oppppennnneddddd it. Man, they weren't kidding "stiff"! As I extended the blade out fully I heard the frame lock catch-CLICK-I knew this was the most solid lock-up I'd ever heard. The sound reminded me of the sound a well made revolver makes when you cock it. I pushed on the frame lock to close it annnnddddd hmmmmmmrrrrpppphhhh-believe me, it was a sheer act of testosterone to convince my thumb that it could be done. Man this sucker is tight! Hopefully as stated above it would loosen up. But more on this later...
Edge\Grind\Finish\Assembly
The knife would shave out of the bag, but not without some effort. Remember-this is a very thick blade (.210") for a folder, and the edge profile reflects this. It is more of a working edge rather than a slicing type edge. Grind lines were all good. Finish was a combination of John's G1 gray (blade), and his new black UV polyester powder coat (frame). Both of which were very well done as I have come to expect from my other Greco's and from what I have read.
At this point I noticed something I thought was a bit peculiar. When the blade folded into the handle there was a distinctive bend in it as you moved toward the tip. So much so that the side of the blade apx 1 1/8" back from the tip actually made contact with the non-lock side frame. What was causing this? Was it the frame lock pressing against the blade? No, doesn't appear to be. Are washers pushing it over-No. Was it ground fat on one side-no the blade is perfectly symetrical at that point. What does the straight edge say? By placing a steel straight edge against the blade on both sides just under the thumb stud, there is a distictive 'bow' in the blade. The left side (edge down) is about 1/16" away from the straight edge at the tip. The right side opens up to a fat 1/8" way from the straight edge at the tip. Not a major problem I guess-just kind of odd. I have heard it said that a strong frame lock will push a blade out like that. Or even a misaligned pivot maybe. But by laying the straight edge across the flat on the sides of the blade, it removes any issue involving the assembly of the knife or the frame lock. Just to be 100% sure, I disassemble the knife (yea, you CAN TAKE APART YOUR GRECO! They even give you the hex wrench to do it.) and measured the full blade sans handles and thumbstud. Same results. And I can assure you this knife is not unevenly ground. What do I think happend? Well first and foremost-I am not any kind of an expert in this, or even a knifemaker, so I can only guess. My thinking is that when the makers mark was struck into the side of the blade it may have caused enough downward pressure to 'bow' the blade slightly. I have spoken with other Falcon\Grifon owners who have this same characteristic in their blades and they all seem to bend the same way. I am open to theories\suggestions on this as I have no real explanation for it, just a gut feeling. Every other area of assembly was top notch with no other discernable problems, defects, or blemishes.
But Mongrel HOW DID IT CUT?
OK, OK....
I have only had opportunity to cut paper, cardboard, building grade lumber, rope, and to hack at some old skids at my job. It cut everything without a problem, though it is more suited to 'heavy-duty' cutting\puncturing than detailed work. This was all with the 'factory' edge. It is a little thick to be as good a cardboard slicer as say my Benchmade AFCK or my Buck 110; but it will slice cardboard. It does a bit better on wood. And by adding a lanyard, I was able to use it as a fairly capable 'chopper'. Something I would not even think about doing with my other folders, and even some of my fixed blades! The weight, profile, and thickness of the blade all add up to no problem for using it in this manner. One area where it did shine was using it to split 3/8" to 1/2" boards for 'kindling'. Normally one would be hesitant to use a small or thin blade when doing this type of work-especially a folder-but I had no problem using the Falcon to do this. One major advantage to the Falcon is it's blade thickness-I DO NOT FEAR BENDING THE TIP! As much as I love my BM AFCK, I never put it to heavy use at the tip, because it is so thin. In fact, I have a slight bend in it now and I have never come close to pushing it.
Cutting update 7/2: I received an Entrek 'Destroyer' on Thursday. After deciding that I would keep it, I took it out into the yard for some 'testing'. Chopping up 2x6's and hacking at some green vegetation (oak and sassafras mainly). Well seeing how my Falcon was 'in pocket'... ....why not?
It was no problem to use the Falcon to split some spruce building lumber up. I just used a 2x3 as a hammer and away I went. With the grain it took about 2 taps and it split right open. I then hammered it thru going against the grain ! I had to hammer it all the way thru this way-but it did it. I have pics if anyone would really be that interested. There was not one bit of noticable damage or even effect on the knife. Everything stayed tight. Only thing was that the blade showed where it had run down the length 2x6.
Another proof-positive of the toughness of this folder.
Oh...BTW...did I mention it makes a decent thrower also......
I am now at the point where it needs to be touched up, and I am considering experimenting with the back-bevel feature of my Sharpmaker to thin it out a little at the same time. I will follow this up with more cutting tests of this knife. (note: 6/17/02-put it on the Sharpmaker today-shaves just fine and is cutting as well as the AFCK mentioned above. I did try my hand at using a 30' bevel, but honestly can't tell if it made a difference or not!...).
That's all well and good Mongrel, but can you open it and close it without breaking a nail?
Well, here we are back to this main issue with this folder. Does it every break in, as described by CQC?
Yes, yes, and a thousand time yes! This has been my personal experience: after about 4 days of using it as an EDC, and sitting mindlessly 'working the blade'-back and forth, back and forth, it started to 'feel' good and loosen up nicely. Now after almost two weeks it is even better. I don't like this type of knife to be "flicka loose" ( I stole that from someone else, but it does describe it well) so I am used to my 'heavy duty' folders being a little 'slow'. I don't like a loose pivot or any blade play so for me it is good. To others, it may be that this knife never gets fast or smooth enough-to that I can only say "to each his own". The Falcon continues to get smoother by the day, including the frame lock (which is still very tight, but that is how I prefer my locks anyway). I CAN unlock it one handed-but usually I use two hands. It has been suggested that the handle be cut back to give better access to the lock. I disagree with this, because I feel that when too much of a liner\frame type lock is exposed the greater the risk of lock failure becomes. I have had production liner-locks disengage just from hand pressure at this part of the grip. Another great thing about this knive is the tight ball and detent set-up, there is absolutely NO WAY this knife is going to inadvertently open up on you! I absolutely trust this knife not to open up or close up on me. It is my #1 Least Likely Lock to Fail knife.
Two recommendations for Falcon\Grifon owners here:
1. Do not push against the thumbstud at a right angle to the frame (perpendicular). Push against the thumbstud away from you and out towards the tip! It took me two days to realize, that by changing WHERE I pushed against the thumbstud I could cut my opening problems by at least 75% if not more!
2. Try to think of this knife as a 'one handed' opener, and a two handed 'closer' at least until the knife loosens up more.
How does it carry?
SHEATH-
The Falcon does not come with the obligatory pocket clip that seems to grow from 90% of the folders made today. It comes with a sheath and a 3/16" lanyard hole. The nylon sheath is marked "E.D.C. PRODUCTS" but I can't tell where it is made because the small tag has been cut off. Suffice to say, we are not talking about a "Blade-Tec" product here, but it isn't a piece of junk either. It is designed for two positition carry-vertical or horizontal, which I thought was a nice touch. The inside of the nylon has some type of 'rubberized coating' also. It closes via hook and loop fastener which is as secure as any other of this type. Knife fits the sheath well. As the overall length of the Falcon closed is 4 3/4" it is well served by carrying it in a sheath.
POCKET-
I found that I could comfortably carry the Falcon in-pocket by attaching a leather thong to the lanyard hole (see pictures) and allowing it to hang over the outside of my pocket. This way the knife was kept from slipping all the way down into the bottom of the pocket where it tends to be a little too obvious and uncomfortable. The leather thong also made it easy to draw the knife from the pocket quickly. This also worked when carrying it in my back pocket, however I get a little nervous when carrying 'unclipped' knives in a back pocket (fear of losing it ) so I only carried it there around the house and yard.
NOTES ON DISASSEMBLY ADDED 7/2:
I had to use a 1/4" open end wrench. I could just barely grab the sides of the SS insert hex head. It was enough for me to break the pivot screw loose.
To Summarize-
I really like this knife! It reminds me of the tools that Craftsman used to make 30 years ago-what they lacked in 'beauty' they sure as hell made up for in toughness and usability. I could honestly carry the Falcon as an EDC (as I have been), and would rate it over several of my high $ production folders best value, toughness, and quality of materials factor. I will definately push this knife harder than any other folder I own. In almost two weeks use I've yet to scratch or mar the G1 finish in anyway-and this includes driving the knife through the bottom of a Maxwell house coffee can! If you are into industrial tough folders that can be used, maintained, sharpened, and carried easily I recommend you take a good look at the Greco Birds of Prey series available at:
www.cqcknives.com
GRECO KNIVES
John Greco
100 Mattie Jones Rd.
Greensburg, KY
42743
270-932-3335
so I guessed it would be ...stiff.
.
