Green Beret : Chris Reeve Knives

The Swamp Rat's are discontinued, so with no way to get them outside of the secondary market the price has increased massively. They are bought mainly for the performance as they are not promoted because of the "hgh speed" nature of who uses them, or the people who designed them, but simply as how they work as tools.

RokJok noted recently that he was one of the high bidders on an Ebay auction and he was bidding based on what he thought the blade was worth in comparision to getting its equal from another maker, in that respect the prices make a lot of sense because the performance of the knives is far greater than the origional Swamp Rat pricing.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
No there are large differences. The serrations were changed making them much less fluid and far less versatile. The balance point was also changed ging it a far more neutral balance, the edge also has a thicker profile which lowers cutting ability. Plus my perspective has changed since I looked at the Project. I have used many more knives since then and would now demand much more out of a knife. For blades of that syle you get a lot more cutting ability out of a high flat profile, more chopping ability as well and more fluid in the wood.

As for A2 and S30V. I have never in general been that impressed with A2 in any case. I have used it from Mission, Reeve and Black Jack and in each case found it to be on the brittle side. A lot of the knife makers I respect though have high praise for it, so i still hold out that it could be tough in the right heat treatment. Back to S30V, its a quality stainless, up there with most of the other currently. Does it set some new fantastic benchmark for toughness, not that I have seen.

-Cliff
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Cliff you don't have to justify anything!
The first review about the knife is just Super Good.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=384825&highlight=beret

Nobody should think to scare or maybe blackmail you.
Cliff you are more powerful than what you think.

my respect
Mark
 
Cliff Stamp said:
The Swamp Rat's are discontinued, so with no way to get them outside of the secondary market the price has increased massively.
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Exactly, and until Green Berets are achieving the same markup (would be about $800.00 or so) in the secondary market, it's not the same deal at all. Again, not saying anything against them, they're made to a very high standard of quality. It's just that there are a whole bunch of people here who try a Rat for the first time and say/write/report "Wow, I can't believe this is only $90.00/$130.00/etc." I've yet to hear a Green Beret user say, "Wow! This is only $280.00!??" though somebody very well may have and I missed it.

Don't take this wrong, Chris Reeve builds outstanding knives, and you pay a fair price for them. Swamp Rat builds outstanding knives and you pretty much rob them blind. We all live in terror of the day they wise up. ;)
 
Don't take this wrong, Chris Reeve builds outstanding knives, and you pay a fair price for them. Swamp Rat builds outstanding knives and you pretty much rob them blind. We all live in terror of the day they wise up.
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same goes for ranger knives :D
 
I just got a brand new battle rat and a rat tail for 140 for both off ebay. 100 for one and 40 for the other. I just found out today that there was already a debate going about Cliff Stamp's reviews on the Green Beret from demoteamone's link he posted. Seem's like I'm not the only one who was frustrated with that review and found it refreshing to see that someone already called that one onto the carpet. I feel liberated.
 
Originally Posted by Cliff Stamp
The Swamp Rat's are discontinued, so with no way to get them outside of the secondary market the price has increased massively.
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You can bet a ratsass that swamp rats will be better prepared when they release the new line. They're well aware of the potential money that was lost on this last line. I think that they'll flood the market with their new line. I can't wait to see their new line myself. I'd almost bet (and I'm wrong on a regular bases) there will be plenty of swamp rats to go around this time.
 
I'd say it's reasonable to assume that the new Rats will be easier to get, since one of the driving reasons behind revamping things was to decrease wait times. That said, they are still a small outfit, and will keep the same warranty and the same (necessary because of that warranty) quality control standards. And what money was lost? When you sell every knife you make six months before you can make it, you're not losing money. I do think they have seen the writing on the wall, but not in a "let's raise prices" kind of way. Since the only consistent complaint that is raised against them is the wait time for their knives, I can pretty much guarantee that correcting that is a primary focus.

And actually, trying to reduce the manufacturing costs and (subsequently) the cost of the knives was another impetus of the move. The simple fact is, most soldiers, rescue workers, ranchers and all the rest of those type of working people that can really benefit from a high quality tool can't afford a $300.00 knife, or will buy it and never use it. Since catering to this crowd is the whole idea behind Swamp Rat (Jennifer's mission statement is still on the front page of the website), I would be very surpised to see huge price increases in the new line. In fact, I'd be far less surprised to see some prices go down.

Time will tell.

As to that other thread, all I can say is people can get extremely defensive when you criticize something they like. I have respect for Bill Harsey but the fact that he's never had one fail him doesn't mean that the same wouldn't be true of any number of other knives out of any number of other steels. He brings up Strider knives as a reference for S30V, and ironically Mick himself has said--if I understood him correctly--that he'd go back to ATS-34 in a heartbeat, but it's no longer the "hot" steel. As for Chris Reeve---why do you think the new Sebenza blades are 2-4 HRC points lower than the old BG-42 ones, and (more importantly) than almost anybody else runs it? It's because of the absurd hype surrounding S30V's merits as a "hard use" steel, and Reeve's realization that people were likely to try and find out if it were true, even on a thin ground folder. Chris Reeve is a great knifemaker, but he's also a businessman, and he simply would have lost market--at least initially--to his competition of they had S30V and he didn't. S30V is a high performing steel in its abrasion and deformation resistance, one of the best general utility stainlesses going right now. Its reputation far exceeds its reality, however, and it will quickly fade when the next "ultimate" steel comes out.
 
Appreciate your reply on the steel. The other topic: I don't think that Swamp Rat will raise prices, I just don't think that they will run out of stock this time. As a paid musician I've seen this marketing story played out many times with guitars: A guitar luthier becomes famous for making fine instruments, gets burn't out on the road to success. He sells his name to a huge corporation and now the guitar is available in every Walmart around the world and is made in Indonesia. Only work he does is endorcing his product and spending money. Not saying this is the future of Swamp Rat, just that it's a real possibilty. How much money do you think Swamp Rat lost by not having a product lately with people paying 3X the original price. Imagine how many more would have sold if they could still order them from their website for the original price? Just my $0.02 worth which really isn't worth 2 cents. :)
 
demoteamone said:
Nobody should think to scare or maybe blackmail you.
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I don't pay much attention to that, facts and logic I appreciate, I just ignore the ad hominem nonsense, it of course will convince some if you yell it loudly which is why it is used, that and there is no other resort.

t1mpani said:
Swamp Rat builds outstanding knives and you pretty much rob them blind.
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The price is solid on the Busse Combat blades, the Swamp Rats are just foolish, differential hardening on solid alloy steel blades, with a huge R&D engine behind them, very high quality control and bullet proof warrenty. It reminds me of those "I am out of my mind" car dealers advertizing rock bottom prices. I figure Busse has oompa loopmpas working for him. The solid standout of quality for me comes in the fact that real guys use them to the extent they look like this :

http://www.riverside-graphics.net/Resources/RWblade.jpg

I have done a lot of wood work with that coating, that amount of wear represents an insane amount of cutting, I have now cut thousands of pieces of wood with my Ratweiler and the coating wear isn't even a fraction of the above.

t1mpani said:
And what money was lost?
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Customers are being lost due to lack of blades, you can't order some of the knives people want and thus they are going elsewhere, this is potential money lost, you may have to expand to get it of course if you are already running 8/10 hour shifts constantly.

As to that other thread, all I can say is people can get extremely defensive when you criticize something they like.
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It just reflects their confidence in the product. I have compared Busse knives to really inexpensive knives and they are outperformed in several aspects, I don't recall any nonsense from Busse about being biased. I compared a Mel Sorg blade in D2 to a custom in 10V costing several times as much, Mel never complained. Both of those guys are confidence in what they do and will just discuss the performance, what you see, where their product stands out, performance/price issues, etc. .

I could list dozens and dozens of such examples time and time again. If I had compared the Beret to something like a Ratweiler instead, it would have been horribly more lopsided as it would be out cut, out chopped, *far* more durable, with much better edge retention on heavy work and much better handle security/ergonomics and versatility all at a fraction of the price. What you also won't find is the manufacturer disputing any of this and claiming that they actually make a better knife because the responce from Busse is pretty predictable whenever that happens.

[S30V]

Its reputation far exceeds its reality, however, and it will quickly fade when the next "ultimate" steel comes out.
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You can see this pattern constantly, one thing which never changes is that the current steel has no weaknesses until its replacement comes out at which point it is obvious that there was a problem that needed to be fixed and this new material is the exact solution - to a problem which never existed until it was available. You will also see a huge lack of direct comparisons showing the actual benefit/upgrade.

I asked Reeve exactly what he had done with S30V to show it of benefit over BG-42, you can check his responce on his forum - it was a secret, he would reveal no details of the testing. Harsey had the exact same responce when I asked him about how the Beret was chosen by the specific military group it is constantly promoted for, what was the criteria, how did it perform, what other knives were used, how did they perform?

In contrast you can ask someone like Wilson why he uses what he does and he will tell you exactly what he does to evaluate the knives, and the exact results for a wide range of steels and give you enough detail so you can check the results yourself.

-Cliff
 
BenchMyke,
I think you're right, the possibility is there for the 'too much of a good thing' phenonima to hit, but I wouldn't worry overly about it. Huge savings and time and money can be made just by streamlining a manufacturing process, and after four years of producing knives, I'm sure they had a whole list of things built up in regards to, "if we were setting this shop up again, what would we do differently?" Less time does not inherently mean less quality. Just from talking to knifemakers here, some of them can take days to finish a knife, where others can turn them out in a matter of hours, with equal or better results. I think, like anything else, the more you do it the more efficient you become. I agree that the Swamp obviously still had a market during this time they've effectively been down, given the huge prices their knives are commanding. But, in the long run, being able to catch up and change a few things for the better probably will make them more money in the future. And hey, your two cents seem to have more than two brain cells behind them, which puts you well ahead of an unfortunately vast majority in my book. ;)

Cliff, remember when ATS-34 was the steel? :cool:
 
ATS-34 was so dominant at one time that it was used in pretty much everything, fillet knives to axes. There was a fairly big clash about how to heat treat it, high or low temper, Mayer vs Bos, with strong opinions on both sides, it was all swallowed up in the S30V promotion which was so heavy it even obliterated 3V as a blade steel as that never really got off the ground. It is interesting now that the US replacement for S30V is a CPM version of ATS-34 which brings that back full circle. It is nice to see non-Crucible steels finally getting some play, and more makers experimenting with tool steels, Spyderco is even releasing some HSS knives, good times ahead.

-Cliff
 
I'm not going to bring his name into this, but a well known knife maker (who does frequent these forums) had this to say about the Crucible steels and brittleness: the problem with the powdered steels is that they're always trying to revert to their natural state.

:D
 
Yes, there are a few makers who in general don't follow the trends, a few people spoke up against Talonite when that was massively pushed and noted the low hardness give lots of problems in various applications. In general though, the people doing the promotion tend to speak the loudest and most frequent and drown out the other guys.

-Cliff
 
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