Green Thorn Knives ?????

[Zombie411]

These are all points I tried to bring out in another thread.
"Some" of these clone manufacturers are putting the value for the dollar above "prestige". (which the Chinese people care nothing for/ie: Bling).

There are TOOOOOOO many adjectives, and rumors involved/spewed for anyone to be certain of what they are saying.
The only certainty is "some" of the China based manufacturers are pissing "some" people off.

I have only one suggestion... get to the bottom of whom is producing what, and verify the never ending statements of sub par or "false steels" statements.
Most people make decisions based on facts.

While I have an emotional opinion on the subject, I still have no opinion based on facts other than the value for the dollar. That is pretty much a one horse race.

This is NOT a troll nor is it an acceptance of a lower moral standard.
I joined THIS site to gain facts on knives and brands. Not moral guidance.
No offense meant to anyone that has a differing opinion as it is not up to me to tell anyone how to think.

 

[AtechReviews]

I have no actual proof, to be perfectly honest I've just heard it a bunch of times and am now repeating it to you.

Hearing a lie and then repeating it a bunch of times doesn't make it true.
AFAIK Shirogorov knives are 100% made in Russia (seen a bunch of photos of the facilities and if those were made in China I would probably know about it).
Until I see some convincing evidence that will prove otherwise (which, I believe, don't exist) I am convinced that what you wrote is complete nonsense.

 

[Coyja]

I actually went down the rabbit's hole recently and ordered a PM2 titanium clone. Or counterfeit. Not sure because I haven't gotten it yet.
But, for $40, I can use the Ti scales elsewhere if I want and also get an idea of what the comparison is in hand.
I've no interest in buying up 50 of them and trying to make a profit, but I am curious if its really as close as people say.

The only other direct from China purchases I've made have been the Sanrenmu 9103, 9104, 910+ all at once because I also wanted to see what they were like. Hands down the best value in a knife I've ever seen. If you told me they were $60, not $15, I wouldn't question it. CH is next on my list to try out.

I'd assume Green Thorn is just a CNC shop that made Shiro clones for Kevin John, or someone else paying them to do so, or KJ themselves hiding behind a different name. If Shiro is actually manufactured in whole or part in China (and maybe that's the better question to ask), then that makes cloning all the more easy, and then that also means that they would be making huge profits on those knives. Russia gonna Russia.

But, I think we can expect the Chinese to only get better at making great knives, and while their original designs are often lacking in, well, originality, and some of the esthetic choices I see are often weird or not very tasteful, only a matter of time before the sleeping dragon that US companies woke up with US designs and innovation is gonna really get bit in the hind area.

China gonna China.

 

[Zombie411]

while their original designs are often lacking in, well, originality, and some of the esthetic choices I see are often weird or not very tasteful,

Sorry to paraphrase a quote but it is the content right there that matters.

We are VERY different culturally from the Chinese people.
WE have no sense of what they find ascetically pleasing, any more than they know what is pleasing to us.

This is (I believe) the very core of this entire issue.
They are using designs that they would never think to produce based on what we buy.

Now, out on a limb... It took how many tens of thousands of years for the Chinese people to become who they are as a culture?
Anglos have what, a few thousand years of development?

There may be a reason in there that the China market has it ALL OVER any Anglo market on the planet. They think, and act as a culture.
We think, and act as individuals until the line of sheep comes to our lawn. Then we (anglos) either bark like dogs or (more often) join the flock.

I don't really believe they are stealing (in their cultural view) as much as they are simply producing what WE like.
I also think that most of the problem is on the other side of our coin. The way WE look at this as an issue.
Reminds me of a saying.
"If you can't stand the heat... act like a tree,,, and eat a box of chocolates"

Just a thought...

 

[AtechReviews]

But, for $40, I can use the Ti scales elsewhere if I want

You couldn't. The ti scales on the clone don't fit the genuine one and it runs on bearings, not on washers as the original.

I'd assume Green Thorn is just a CNC shop that made Shiro clones for Kevin John, or someone else paying them to do so, or KJ themselves hiding behind a different name. If Shiro is actually manufactured in whole or part in China (and maybe that's the better question to ask), then that makes cloning all the more easy, and then that also means that they would be making huge profits on those knives. Russia gonna Russia.

This whole statement is not true. Kevin John and Green Thorn are 2 separate brands, different facilities, etc.
I know that for a fact. Just as the Shiro knives are made in Russia.

The only other direct from China purchases I've made have been the Sanrenmu 9103, 9104, 910+ all at once because I also wanted to see what they were like. Hands down the best value in a knife I've ever seen.

Agree on the SRM 910 series, had the green G10 version. Great budget beater knives.

 

[Coyja]

No I get it that China is a different culture... I literally toured the country as a musician for a US Embassy funded cultural exchange.
The Chinese do not think of lying/stealing as that much of a cultural no-no.
To me, its less about them understanding what the market wants as much as it is the market was literally handed over to them.

As to Shiro being 100% Russian, I just don't believe it. There is so much cross marketing between Shiro/Green Thorn/Kevin John in Russian on youtube that SOMEONE in Russia is playing games. 3 out of 4 videos on the clone brands are in Russian.

 

[Zombie411]

This whole statement is not true. Kevin John and Green Thorn are 2 separate brands, different facilities, etc.
I know that for a fact. Just as the Shiro knives are made in Russia.

Can you please lead to any verification of this?
I would like to know what is real, and what is rumored.

Thank you, and PLEASE do not think I am being insincere.

 

[Coyja]

You couldn't. The ti scales on the clone don't fit the genuine one and it runs on bearings, not on washers as the original.

Dang, but it also has bearings? Wow.

 

[extrastout]

The reality is that the Chinese have infiltrated the higher end knife market Both in price and quality either on there own or through American companies that manufacture knives over there. I am basing my opinion on past experience. I used to be in the jewelry manufacturing business for many years and slowly watched the industry shifting abroad. Now all the shops are gone. It took them a while to get quality up to par but they did. Now unless you are a small time manufacturer you have no choice but to make the jewelry abroad. I unfortunately see the same thing happen. The made in America loyalty will only go so far and then people will say I am buying from an American company but it is made in China or Taiwan, Why not just get it from the foreign. If you watch the knife reviewers they have broken down an started giving high marks for quality and price. Don't for one second think that that this does not have a profound effect on the knife market. When I say "get their act together I am referring to companies such as Benchmade who's QC has been a disaster for the last few years but their prices are so high for what you get that it should be a knife that you don't think twice about buying, Unfortunately this is no longer the case. Everything in the real world boils down to Value for your dollar.
You go to McDonald's and you get the exact quality that you expect for the money but when you go to an expensive restaurant where Entrees start at $30 you have much higher expectations. The same goes for any business. If you look around you their are dozens of categories of business's that have gone abroad to survive. I try and buy American as much as possible but it becomes more and more difficult as time goes forward. I just bought a ZT 0452 and a 0562, both knives that I have wanted for a long time. The 0452 that everybody has been touting as the most incredible action has had to go back twice and it is there now. This not the only example that I have, My Spyderco Advocate and Southard had to go back because of an inherent problem with the washer's being to thin. You would think that they would have addressed this issue long ago but that is not the case. My Mannix's of which I own 5, I love the knives but I put up with the fact that the spring are too strong and needs 2 fingers and some strength to close that makes it not a fun knife to flick. I called Spyderco a few month's back and their solution was that the knife is to Spec and that it was designed to be closed with two hands. Not quite the answer I expected. It seems that other companies such as Benchmade and Ganzo have managed to make a similar lock that doesn't hurt you fingers. What's up with that. I had a recent problem with a Knife from Kizer and without asking 40 questions they said send it to us and we will send you a new one. The office was not in China it was in California. I had it in two weeks, Spyderco 6 to 8 weeks. The last hurdle that most of them need to address is to have a good warranty departments and that is the last nail in the coffin. By the way I have Taiwanese and Japanese Spyderco's and have not have any problems them ever.
I am sure that after reading what I wrote here you think of me as a pessimist but I prefer the term realist because it is happening now and pretty soon it won't be a roll of the dice. I have about ten Chinese knives and except for the Kizer they were all great out of the box. If you buy it from reputable companies which have all been reviewed your roll of dice is no more luck than from an American manufacturer's USA made knives.

These American made companies hire more and more illegal or fresh off the boat non english employees. They don't expect much pay and are not trained properly since there is a communication issue (quality issues). If their employment doesn't work out, just hire the next guy for near nothing. The tax payers make sure their families are taken care of....not the companies. The more kids they have, the more support they get. Keep pumping them out...why not. They have the American dream even if it takes living in a studio with 8 other people. They just send the money to their homeland and return once they made enough.....In the meantime I keep having to jump from one shop to the next....Employers want to pay less and less. The pure breads cant afford a living this way. If you do get a proper wage, you are going to be micromanaged and feel like you might lose your job any day (my life)....This is all to keep up with China and survive as a business. I will not support China as much as I can. Companies cant afford to pay me enough to survive, without me relying on the taxpayers.... unless they hire cheeper, less qualified (do not press 1 for english) employees around me. Unfortunately I need clothes and shoes so its a losing battle. I can fight the knife battle though!

 

[AtechReviews]

As to Shiro being 100% Russian, I just don't believe it. There is so much cross marketing between Shiro/Green Thorn/Kevin John in Russian on youtube that SOMEONE in Russia is playing games. 3 out of 4 videos on the clone brands are in Russian.

It isn't a matter of belief, but what is true and what is not.
If that could convince you - Sergey Shirogorov and other folks that are involved in the Shiro knife brand aren't particularly happy about the clones and have taken measures to fight those.
Not that it helped much (you could even say backfired), but they did.
Clones are pretty popular in Russia because of the exchange rates (genuine knives are too expensive for most) and because they have less reasons to be loyal to US made brands.
Plus high prices and shipping rates vs free shipping from China.
Not all of course, there are plenty of folks who hold a strong anti-clone position.
That doesn't mean Shiros are made in China though (cause they aren't).

Can you please lead to any verification of this?
I would like to know what is real, and what is rumored.

I wouldn't on this forum.
But trust me on this one - 2 totally different organizations.
I could give you this though - Kevin John made knives long time before Green Thorn ever exist.

 

[Zombie411]

The Chinese do not think of lying/stealing as that much of a cultural no-no.
To me, its less about them understanding what the market wants as much as it is the market was literally handed over to them.

As to Shiro being 100% Russian, I just don't believe it. There is so much cross marketing between Shiro/Green Thorn/Kevin John in Russian on youtube that SOMEONE in Russia is playing games. 3 out of 4 videos on the clone brands are in Russian.

The lying/stealing part, I think you may have mis-stated your thought... You can be put to death in China for such lapses in character.

The counterfeiting, and using trade marks is one thing. Criminal at the least.
Worse yet are the people that buy them (counterfeits), and defraud others. That's a double whammy of crap.

Cloning? I don't think it is a cultural issue for them, and I further believe that they would not clone at all if the markets had no use for them. It's a supply/demand thing.
Look at the retail price of some of these non China made brands... If people will spend 3k + for a knife then 50 bucks for a fairly close clone is a given.
Even worse? Some of these high dollar domestic knives contain parts made in china.

I think (just my opinion) that this is a knee jerk reaction.
Many people take the moral high ground, and are justified in their position.
Many more just have their panties in a wad because Americans can't produce a 50.00 auto that's worth a crap.
Yelps of "Dangerous", and "Will harm you if used" are too common in the arguments. Any Case knife will harm you if you act a fool with it. Baton a tree with a Stockman... Not what their made for? Neither is a Ganzo!

WE did this to ourselves. WE outpriced our own wallets.
Look at our monetary system for proof of this. WE started from a debt that will NEVER be repaid, and WE continue to borrow to pay the debt.
China is just fine. They always will be.

 

[Aldebaran]

I find this hate of Chinese manufacturing and the pass on Russian products interesting. When did Russia become a friend to the USA and China, where many USA brands are made, become the enemy? Very interesting.......

 

[extrastout]

I find this hate of Chinese manufacturing and the pass on Russian products interesting. When did Russia become a friend to the USA and China, where many USA brands are made, become the enemy? Very interesting.......

Manufacturing in America eventually sends its work out to China a lot of times, not Russia. Then blue collar Americans are out of a job and cant afford American made products. Have to buy from China. Vicious cycle

 

[emjay4248]

I believe that the only way to slow the inevitable is to put tariffs on Chinese products. The only problem is that our country borrows alot of money from them, and so the circle gets formed. Borrow from China, buy a ton of their product so that we can keep their economy afloat so that they can lend us more money. If we do put tariffs on there product they will retaliate by doing the same thing to us. welcome to the new world of global economy. If an individual is caught doing this with checks and a few other people it is called Kiting and it is considered bank fraud which is penalized by both the state and federal government. Erma Bombeck wrote a great book years ago which kind of fits our situation and it was called "If life is a bowl of Cherries why are we in the pits" on that note I bid you all good night

 

[wensynch]

See that's the thing about not showing.

Shirogorov = KevinJohn = Custom Knife Factory

What now?

It's a company named after some dude that may or may not make knives.. but not the dude him or herself. Could some Russian living in the US or Chinese in Russia.

Son of a Russian and Chinese knifemakers?

 

[AtechReviews]

See that's the thing about not showing.

Shirogorov = KevinJohn = Custom Knife Factory

What now?

It's a company named after some dude that may or may not make knives.. but not the dude him or herself. Could some Russian living in the US or Chinese in Russia.

Son of a Russian and Chinese knifemakers?

That's just on another level of wrong, check your facts.

Shirogorov is named after 2 brothers - Sergey and Igor (who unfortunately died in a car crash in 2015, RIP).
Sergey is the head of the company now and he also makes his own custom knives.
CKF is run by Mike Kuligyn.
And Kevin John is led by a Chinese man (Kevin John isn't his real name).

 

[Zombie411]

I'm sooo f'ing confused...

 

[bobobama]

That's just on another level of wrong, check your facts.

Shirogorov is named after 2 brothers - Sergey and Igor (who unfortunately died in a car crash in 2015, RIP).
Sergey is the head of the company now and makes his own custom knives.
CKF is run by Mike Kuligyn.
And Kevin John is led by a Chinese man (Kevin John isn't his real name).

Not to hijack this thread, but maybe put another perspective on it: Spyderco, Cold Steel and Columbia River, among others, all have substantial output from Chinese (and Taiwainese as well) factories. Not sure to what extent these companies own and/or operate these facilities, but I'm sure as many of you can attest, they turn out some very nice, in some cases superior, products. It's worth throwing into this mix that there is some legitimacy to the reality of Chinese knife manufacturing, and I personally would love to see a more detailed analysis of how this whole industry actually operates.

 

[Zombie411]

Plus 1

 

[stabman]

I have one Green Thorn Knife.
It was a gift.

It says it has D2 steel...well, if it does (and I'm not yet convinced that it does), their heat treat sure is nowhere near as good as Medford Knife and Tool, for instance. I can tell that much just from using it, and seeing how much quicker it dulls, gets scratched more easily, etc.

It is an okay knife.
I will not say what maker seems to have been the "inspiration" for it, as I don't feel like advertising for those who do such copying.
I would say it is not really worth the price they sell it for...but I wasn't gonna be a dick about someone giving me a gift.