Grinder: 110/220?

I think you're confusing 10/3 12/3 with 10/4 12/4. You need 3 wires for the motor, your normal 2 + ground. I do NOT reccomend grounding your motor to the table or some such instead of using a proper ground wire to the outlet. You dont need the 4th wire, neutral, for a motor. The neutral is because your 2 leads in 220 are such that they're out of phase so each is only carrying 110, but the sum is 220, but many appliances use a 110 circuit for the lightbulbs fans and other parts, where if you tie from either lead to the neutral then you've got a standard 110 drop.
 
As Justin said, having the neutral leg allows for more use of the circuit. As a lineman,you deal in large gauge and high voltage, but electrical code for a 220V 30Amp circuit requires a 10 gauge line , IIRC.


50 feet of 10/3 should run about $50-$60
Stacy
 
Logistically speaking, with a variable speed KMG, you are limited to a 1.5 hp motor with the controller. With the very same controller, you can plug in a 2 hp motor if you wire it up with 220. Or you can go with the bigger controller and go with a higher HP motor.
 
I think you're confusing 10/3 12/3 with 10/4 12/4. You need 3 wires for the motor, your normal 2 + ground. I do NOT reccomend grounding your motor to the table or some such instead of using a proper ground wire to the outlet. You dont need the 4th wire, neutral, for a motor. The neutral is because your 2 leads in 220 are such that they're out of phase so each is only carrying 110, but the sum is 220, but many appliances use a 110 circuit for the lightbulbs fans and other parts, where if you tie from either lead to the neutral then you've got a standard 110 drop.

Thanks. I didn't explain it well!:eek:
 
Wait so 3phase is mystery power? Hmmm this motor I was talkin about in my closet is 3phase...

Oh well sounds like its gonna be useless for me, off to ebay it goes. :) Wonder what I should ask.
 
Wait so 3phase is mystery power? Hmmm this motor I was talkin about in my closet is 3phase...

Oh well sounds like its gonna be useless for me, off to ebay it goes. :) Wonder what I should ask.

My electrican told me that all 3 phase requires is an exra leg. if you have the space in your breaker box, you can have it popped in if you are already running the correct wire for 220v. They have compact 2 in 1 110v breakers so you can even steal an existing spot if you need to.
 
Hi Y'all,

I'm just starting to try to figure all this stuff out. I thought one of the advantages of standard 220VAC, in addition to all those already mentioned, was that you could run a 3 phase motor on it via an inverter and get variable speed control for your grinder rather than just step pulleys. If this is so, wouldn't that 3 phase motor in the closet be usable with regular 220VAC (with a properly matched inverter)?

Please advise.

Thanks, Phil
 
Phil, Yes with 220V and a 3 phase inverter you can run a 3 phase motor. You loose some power but it works. An inverter, plus a VFD will make a 3 phase motor run variable speed, but everything must be matched right ( especially at 2-3HP). There is the cost, and the failure rate of the units to be considered.

What I meant by "mystery power" is that most people don't understand 3 phase, and it is not readily available. Having 3 phase pulled into a residential shop can be quite expensive. It is also not plug-and-play like 220V is.
Stacy
 
In the US of A, 3 phase is not available to residential dwellings. In Europe it (sometimes) is.

Here the street power transformer has a secondary winding that gives you 240V. The winding is center-tapped, so you can have 120V too, going from the center to either lead. At the breaker box this center tapping (aka neutral) is wired to the ground.

The benefits of using 240V v 120v are 2-fold: you can have more power delivered to your appliance AND you will lower the current. Less current means you can use smaller-gage wires, they won't heat up as much and you won't have too much of a voltage drop and more of the voltage will make to the appliance.

With 240V wiring, both legs are HOT, as opposed to 120V, where 1 leg is hot and the other one is neutral (as it is connected to the ground at the breaker box). Hot legs will shock one when touched and possibly kill - if the current manages to find a path that goes through one's heart for example.

Hot legs are the ones that get fused and require breakers. So with 120V circuit you need a single pole breaker (one leg is hot, the other one's neutral), with 240V a double pole one (both legs are hot).

Most all appliances must be properly grounded - to the end each electrical circuit carries a ground wire. Appliances have a ground lug, usually something real solid to which that ground wire attaches.

The idea is have the appliance at ground potential (0) so you won't get shocked when you touch it/lean against it etc AND to have the fuses/breakers break the circuit pronto, should a hot wire ever get short-circuited to the appliance.

There's another aspect of electrical protection - especially for electrical wiring in dump/wet environments, such as shower, bath, industrial processing facilities -
if interested, you should read this http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/99.html
 
Yes with 220V and a 3 phase inverter you can run a 3 phase motor. You loose some power but it works. An inverter, plus a VFD will make a 3 phase motor run variable speed, but everything must be matched right ( especially at 2-3HP). There is the cost, and the failure rate of the units to be considered.

I have heard the VFDs have a fairly high failure rate, and know they can be costly, as well as "tricky" to pair up with the motor and inverter. All this being said (for a home shop without 3 phase) outside of step pulleys, what other viable (less costly and/or more reliable) variable speed options would you guys implement?
 
I know there are two (or more) camps on this subject, But I opt for DC drives. The controllers are more robust and easier to match to the motor (just change the HP resistor). They are relatively cheap if you shop around, and readily available. They run on single phase 120V or 220V and can deliver all the power a grinder or shop tool needs.
Stacy
 
I have a 2HP VFD from Rob on a KMG and two 1.5HP variable DC motors on two BIIIs. All good rigs, no complaints but the DC motors have more power or torque, noticeably to me. But I need more power :)
 
A DC motor will lose less torque when slowed down with a VFD than an AC motor will, which is why what seems to have more power to you, is in reality, more power.
 
Hi Friends,

Okay, now I have a bit more to learn. This craft sure is keeping me on my toes. Here's a DC controller spec tag. If I found a 1.5-2 hp DC motor, would this control it? Where can I learn more?

Thanks, Phil

Edit: Whoops, I just noticed the eBay section this controller is listed in says, "Motors > Less than .5 HP". I'm supposing there is a way to assess/calculate this value from the voltage and amperage ratings???
 

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Lemme see,

YOU SHOULD WIRE IT FOR 220!!! :D

220 be muchos grandes better all around and it aint no biggie to hook up!
 
Phil,
Here is a KBM controller that will work on a grinder (HP resistor and other parts readily available from the maker):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Multi-Drive-DC-...kparms=72:552|39:1|65:12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Here is a good motor for a lot of tools:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Reliance-Electr...kparms=72:552|39:1|65:12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Here is a great motor for a disc grinder:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=160252580262&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=006

You want a totally enclosed and prefferably fan cooled motor that runs at 180VDC. You will need to mount the controller in a NEMA 4 box and heat sink it. ( controls HATE metal dust). All this can be run on 220V and normal gauge wiring.
Stacy
 
http://www.kbelectronics.com/]

Manufacturers link to KB Electronics
PDF data sheets available for each model


AC

KBMA-24 D is AC VFD controller in a NEMA 1 Enclosure - economical choice
(rob frink sells i think )
http://www.kbelectronics.com/catalog_nema1_inv.htm

KBAC-24 D is the same in a NEMA 4 Enclosure - washdown proof & dust tight
http://www.kbelectronics.com/catalog_nema_4x_ac.htm


DC

KBMD-240D
listed in Stacy's Ebay listing
http://www.kbelectronics.com/catalog_speed_controls.htm]
in NEMA 1 Enclosure


KBAC-27D
http://www.kbelectronics.com/catalog_nema_4x_ac.htm
in NEMA 4 Enclosure
 
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On the subject of DC controls:

2 basic varieties are available: PWM and SCR. PWM is the better one (it is much easier on the motors) but tougher to find at a decent price. You can score one off Ebay but it will most likely be a somewhat crippled treadmill version.

SCRs are easier to find. Ebay normally has a few - look for Minarik 23001C. Surpluscenter has them in stock http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008062307193412&item=11-2269&catname=electric .

I use 2 of these - converted my 9x20 and replaced the stock controller in my Sieg X3.
Bought 3rd one just as a replacement.

You'd need an enclosure to protect the controller from (metal) dust and grit.

To realize full power you will also need a heat sink - something from old pentium works just fine.

But, the biggest problem with going DC route has to do with motors. Honestly rated 1.5-2HP TEFC DC motors are very, very expensive - more expensive than a VFD + 2 HP 3 phase motor combos are.

You can go with a treadmill motors - these are dirt cheap BUT open all around. You will need to protect them really good. They also got brushes, which wear off . You also have to cool these with an external fan (TEFC motors all include internal fans).

Bottom line:

- you can go with an SCR controller and a cheap treadmill motor for something like $100-$120 delivered, but it the motor will require a bit of work to protect and cool properly . Don't even think about buying an industrial TEFC DC motor as these are
bocu money. Look at page #997 @ McMaster ($550 - $860 for 1 1/2 and 2 HP).

- VFD + 2 HP 3 phase motor will prolly set you back $400+ (assumes getting an inexpensive 3 phase motor - these are plentiful), but the motor will last forever, won't overheat or require protection.

The controllers will last about the same, assuming they are properly protected (NEMA-4 enclosures) and cooled.
 
Motor will run cooler wired 220v which should equal longer life. I've got a 2 1/2 hp Baldor on my grinder that can be wired for either 110v or 220v. The trouble with 110v is that it pulls 23 amps on start up and close to 20amps under load. Wiring it for 220v cut the amps in half making it cooler running, and more efficient.
 
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