Grinder design input needed

Sean Cochran

Sean Cochran

Joined
Aug 17, 2009
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240
I would like to get some input from everyone about grinder design.

I have a business associate who owns a machine shop. During a recent conversation with him with him we began discussing grinders. His normal business is mostly the mining industry, but with the recent down turn in coal mining (due to a draconian administration in DC, but I digress) he is looking to diversify his production. I suggested that he might consider designing and producing a grinder. Since he is not a knife maker he asked for my input. I have given him several ideas that I have.

My friend is a guy who does everything to the the 9s, and he said IF he got into the grinder market he wanted to produce the best product he can. With that I committed to helping him gather information.

So...I would like to hear what design features you would like to see or find most useful in a 2 x 72 format grinder.

Thanks for your help.
 
I would give him the links to the TW-90, KMG, Bader, as well as links to the plans for the EERF, grinder in a box, Polar bear, etc. If he is a machinist, he will quickly determine the main features that are needed and popular.


The features that are most popular on upgraded grinders are:
VDF - if the grinder is being sold with a motor, a VFD option or as standard is a great selling point. However, the grinder will be priced much lower if it is sold without a motot and the user can configure it ass he wishes. In that case, the grinder should be set up for a C-face motor mount.

Multi slots for multiple tool arms.

At a minimum, there should be a flat platen and a contact wheel arm. Other arms that are popular are a small wheel attachment and a "multi-wheel arm" ( usually three wheels that can be rotated into position. Basic arms only ( no wheels or attachments) is also an option, and the user can use the standard wheels and attachments and arms that fit KMG ( the most common size arm)

Ease of arm change

Rock solid tracking with good control ( this is the #1 complaint about a low end grinder).

Overall rigidity ( within limits, a grinder can't be built too heavily)

Adjustability easy of belt tension ( Pneumatic tube or air power is becoming popular)

Horizontal change-over ( This is a big feature)

Finally, have him get with someone like Salem Straub or another well versed maker ( local if possible) to discuss features, and to test the prototypes. ( Salem is currently testing a new grinder for another manufacturer).

Caveat:
Making a specialized tool like a high end grinder when you know nothing about the tasks it will do is sort of like designing a specialized sniper rifle when you have never shot a gun. If he knows nothing about them and isn't going to pair up with a person well versed, then he should stick to making and selling a basic KMG clone or a clone kit. The vast amount of grinders out there are of this type.
 
the market is saturated with grinder makers so he will need to produce something different and better to draw attention. right now no one manufactures a stainless grinder for wet work. along with everything Stacy suggested this would be a strong selling point if pricing isnt too high.
 
The bottom of the market is so full.


However I don't know if anyone would pay for a stainless grinder.

The material costs alone are out of sight even to diy.


The TW90 was innovative, even though it's the price of a car it's selling and influencing others.

Unless you have the knowledge insight and innovation to come out on top of that, I'd keep looking for different products.

Forget dealing with the bottom of the market clones, there is huge competition,
and huge time and money spent holding customers hands on marketing and sales time and shipping for just one sale.


He needs to come up with the next $ 5,000 grinder.

It's got to be innovative.
 
Last edited:
12345678910 said:
The bottom of the market is so full.


However I don't know if anyone would pay for a stainless grinder.

The material costs alone are out of sight even to diy.


The TW90 was innovative, even though it's the price of a car it's selling and influencing others.

Unless you have the knowledge insight and innovation to come out on top of that, I'd keep looking for different products.

Forget dealing with the bottom of the market clones, there is huge competition,
and huge time and money spent holding customers hands on marketing and sales time and shipping for just one sale.


He needs to come up with the next $ 5,000 grinder.

It's got to be innovative.
Click to expand...

I agree that the bottom of the market is saturated, but there's also probably a reason that there aren't many options in the $3000 to $4000+ range. At a certain point, it's simply not worth it to most makers, especially considering the quality of the options at the lower end.

Personally, if I had a full blown machine shop, I'd probably work on grinder accessories: Affordable wheels, chilled platens, radius platens, articulating work rests, etc... Maybe some jigs and other specially tools and accessories. I'm surprised nobody has come up with a more affordable surface grinding attachment yet.
 
Forget the knife grinder market for reason stated above.

What we need is an affordable surface grinder for knifemakers.

Now that is something he can run with.
 
Yep, an affordable surface grinder attachment would certainly get my attention!
 
Very interesting points gentlemen.

I agree that the low end of the market is saturated, competition here is not only production units, but also would be competing with DIY. Since by nature many knife makers are builders and tinkerers the guy who is going to put $500 in a grinder will most likely find some way to DIY. Couple that with the fact the to keep price point low there would need to be a need to cut some corners, means that the ROI in that market would be low. Just not enough margin even if high volume could be attained.

On the other hand the high end of the market is a very narrow in terms of the size of the market. Given that the potential target market is on the small side and the fact that there are several manufacturers in that market, it seems that it is saturated as well. Well...if not saturated at least at critical mass. There does not appear to be room to scale in this segment.

So that leaves the mid range market. I would consider this market to have a price point of around $2,000-$2500. The key would be to provide a real value of innovation at this price point that the competition does not offer. The TW-90 is a good example of value of innovation. It is a higher price point however.

The idea of marketing consumables or accessories is very interesting. The challenge would be to produce an accessory that is in demand and would be compatible across as many platforms as possible. The surface grinder would be perfect if it could be configured as an accessory rather than a stand alone product, and one that would work on the major platforms such as KMG etc.

The gentleman I'm working with has no problem spending what ever is needed in R&D. He is ready to make a major investment in tooling for a new product line as long as he is reasonably sure he can be successful with it.

thoughts???
 
Sean Cochran said:
Very interesting points gentlemen.

I agree that the low end of the market is saturated, competition here is not only production units, but also would be competing with DIY. Since by nature many knife makers are builders and tinkerers the guy who is going to put $500 in a grinder will most likely find some way to DIY. Couple that with the fact the to keep price point low there would need to be a need to cut some corners, means that the ROI in that market would be low. Just not enough margin even if high volume could be attained.

On the other hand the high end of the market is a very narrow in terms of the size of the market. Given that the potential target market is on the small side and the fact that there are several manufacturers in that market, it seems that it is saturated as well. Well...if not saturated at least at critical mass. There does not appear to be room to scale in this segment.

So that leaves the mid range market. I would consider this market to have a price point of around $2,000-$2500. The key would be to provide a real value of innovation at this price point that the competition does not offer. The TW-90 is a good example of value of innovation. It is a higher price point however.

The idea of marketing consumables or accessories is very interesting. The challenge would be to produce an accessory that is in demand and would be compatible across as many platforms as possible. The surface grinder would be perfect if it could be configured as an accessory rather than a stand alone product, and one that would work on the major platforms such as KMG etc.

The gentleman I'm working with has no problem spending what ever is needed in R&D. He is ready to make a major investment in tooling for a new product line as long as he is reasonably sure he can be successful with it.

thoughts???
Click to expand...

I think that a surface grinding attachment could quite easily be configured as an attachment. It essentially just needs to be integrated to a 1.5" tool arm to work with a majority of the most common grinders.
 
The things I found important in a 2 x 72 grinder are: Extra tool arm slot, gas piston tension control, aluminum tool arms (to save weight and ease use), and if you want to swing the grinder horizontal then it needs direct drive. If you do not have room for a floor standing surface grinder then the Travis Wuertz surface grinding attachment is a good substitute and I think worth the money. It can be adapted to almost any grinder ( ask me how if you are thinking about one). I built a Polar Bear Forge grinder and made it horizontal for the Wuertz attachment. I use it set up for surface grinding permanently. Just today I put a distal taper on a hunting knife blade and also tapered the tang before polishing the flats where the guard will be. This will taper the spine while allowing a less than full hollow grind. I could not have done this so easily without a surface grinding attachment. Most of the grinders Mr. Apelt mentioned have these desirable features. My advice is to spend a little more than you want on your grinder and have versatility to use many attachments. Larry P.S. Get or build a good adjustable tool rest. LL


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