Grinding... Zero to Hero

L

LINESIX

Joined
Jun 10, 2017
Messages
26
Hey everyone, quick question:

How long did it take you guys to get your grind skills? I've been trying to get a good flat ground bevel for over a month. Probably made and ruined like 8 knife attempts so far... I'd rather not use a jig so I can build up my own skills. I'd rather pump out scrap than make a decent blade by "cheating." No offense to those of you that do use jigs for your bevels. It's just not my thing.

Thanks.
 
What meager skills I have began in all the wrong ways. But like you I have no interest in using jigs. Neither, unfortunately, was I willing to use a proper grinder until I exhausted all other options.

But one of those options proved useful... grinding with files. It's a hard slog, but it taught me about not rushing to get the bevel done (making concave bevels). It taught me to lock my arms, hands, and fingers into the proper position before I started a grind. And it turns out those skills transferred pretty well once I built my crappy GiB grinder.

So, to answer you question, it took about three years. And I've never done anything but freehand grinding.
 
There is no "On/Off" switch that can create instant success. The first 10 were 1 BAD and the next 9 were each better. For the last 10 years I think every once in awhile 1 is almost Perfect. Patience and the ability to assess where correction of posture and grip to correct the grind angle are important. I visualize how I am going to approach the grinder and how my angle is going to contact the belt before it actually happens.
 
Most knife makers not having unlimited funds try to squeeze every last grind out of a belt. This being said, new belts cut faster and MUCH smoother than old belts. Try using your old belt to rough grind, then switch to a new to even things up. Also, more medium speed passes on the belt usually produce better looking grinds than slower, heavy, deep grinds.
Hope this helps.
 
try the fred rowe bubble jig. it will speed up the learning. its not a typical jig, it does not hold the knife. it has a bubble level that tells you you are holding the blade at the right angle. its one of the few tools that will train you not to need it once it hones your skills.
 
50-60 knives before things really "clicked" for me. Still room for improvement.
 
What kind of grinder are you using? Tell us about what you're working with here.

I'll tell you that the first 6-8 were horrific. The next half a dozen I saw improvement. 15-20 in and you should start getting the hang of it. Good advise above.... fresh belts cut cleaner lines. I also found out that turning up the speed cuts better also.


This guy talks about his technique. I've watched it several times. It's probably the most helpful video I've found.
 
Always room for improvement, and I still booger up grinds from time to time. Here's what I have learned works for me.
  • Lock into a repeatable position.
  • If you can't find a repeatable position (I and most makers like the platen about belly high, arms at a 90° angle) then raise or lower your grinder.
  • Set the edge center by grinding at 45° using a worn 36-60 grit belt.
  • Lock your elbows into your sides/ gut (this is one area where having a little bigger gas tank for the love machine is a GOOD thing;)).
  • Move as much of your whole body side to side to make the pass as you can. Just moving your arms can lead to uneven thickness from ricasso to tip.
  • Concentrate on feeling the flat of the grind against the flat of the platen as you move that create the bevel up to the spine.
  • I like to keep a very thin gap between the edge I created and the belt as I move the grind towards the spine. I then come back to bring the edge thickness to where I want it later on.
  • The only aid I consistently use when grinding is a carbide faced file guide. It allows me to make my plunges even and removes one variable from the mix.
  • If I was starting over knowing what I know now, I would have bought a bubble jig from the get go.
  • You should be "in the zone" if you are doing it right. By this, I mean with the noise of the grinder drowning out everything else (or your hearing protection muffling out noise) you will be totally focused on what is happening with that grind against that belt. VISUALIZE what is happening. Your hands will tell your brain if you are flat against the belt, use that information to stay in the zone.

*** The following is not generally accepted advice I have seen, but it worked for me***

You shouldn't try to use really thick stock for early knives BUT (and this may be just my opinion) using thicker and taller stock (like 1/4" thick/ 2" high) can help you see and feel what is happening when you are grinding better. It also can give you some leeway to correct issues in one session. I'm not saying to make knives right out of the gate with thicker stock, but to learn, I personally saw a benefit. Maybe get yourself a 1/4" thick x 2" high piece of steel and make yourself a chopper. If it winds up less then perfect, it will still be a great tool around the yard.

Hope this helps. I know it can be frustrating, but practice makes perfect (or as close as mortal man is able)
 
alclark2 said:
What kind of grinder are you using? Tell us about what you're working with here.

I'll tell you that the first 6-8 were horrific. The next half a dozen I saw improvement. 15-20 in and you should start getting the hang of it. Good advise above.... fresh belts cut cleaner lines. I also found out that turning up the speed cuts better also.


This guy talks about his technique. I've watched it several times. It's probably the most helpful video I've found.
Click to expand...


I second EKIM knives video. He does a good job of explaining and filming. He also makes no bones that he has been exactly where you are now.
 
tryppyr said:
What meager skills I have began in all the wrong ways. But like you I have no interest in using jigs. Neither, unfortunately, was I willing to use a proper grinder until I exhausted all other options.

But one of those options proved useful... grinding with files. It's a hard slog, but it taught me about not rushing to get the bevel done (making concave bevels). It taught me to lock my arms, hands, and fingers into the proper position before I started a grind. And it turns out those skills transferred pretty well once I built my crappy GiB grinder.

So, to answer you question, it took about three years. And I've never done anything but freehand grinding.
Click to expand...

Well, it looks like I might as well make myself comfortable by the grinder, seeing how it will be a little while before I get it. Paying attention to my body posture and tucking my elbows into my sides really made a world of difference. Thanks for the reply.

Busto said:
There is no "On/Off" switch that can create instant success. The first 10 were 1 BAD and the next 9 were each better. For the last 10 years I think every once in awhile 1 is almost Perfect. Patience and the ability to assess where correction of posture and grip to correct the grind angle are important. I visualize how I am going to approach the grinder and how my angle is going to contact the belt before it actually happens.
Click to expand...

Glad to know that I'm not the only one that visualizes the approach. Sometimes I have to think about how the steel is getting removed by the belt, where the bevel meets the flat, and what speed the draw across the belt is. I'm sure to an extent it will become second nature to me. For now though, it's just awkward. I'll tell you what though... grinding is a lot like meditation. Focusing on body posture, blade angle, hand pressure, draw speed, belt speed, ect. It's impossible for me to think about anything else besides grinding when I'm at the belt.

DAMNENG said:
Most knife makers not having unlimited funds try to squeeze every last grind out of a belt. This being said, new belts cut faster and MUCH smoother than old belts. Try using your old belt to rough grind, then switch to a new to even things up. Also, more medium speed passes on the belt usually produce better looking grinds than slower, heavy, deep grinds.
Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

I'll keep that in mind. I figured that a worn belt would be safer to make a bevel than a fresh one because I imagined it would take away less metal. Now that I think about it, I can see why a worn belt would be no bueno. Thanks for that tip.

john april said:
try the fred rowe bubble jig. it will speed up the learning. its not a typical jig, it does not hold the knife. it has a bubble level that tells you you are holding the blade at the right angle. its one of the few tools that will train you not to need it once it hones your skills.
Click to expand...

That thing is expensive for a jig! It looks really simple... I bet I could make one. Do you know anybody that has made their own and have positive results with it?
 
Kevin McGovern said:
I second EKIM knives video. He does a good job of explaining and filming. He also makes no bones that he has been exactly where you are now.
Click to expand...
I'm familiar with his channel on youtube. He's pretty good at explaining things that a lot of other youtube tutorial guys fail to mention. Thanks for the link. I'll make sure to watch it.
Kevin McGovern said:
Always room for improvement, and I still booger up grinds from time to time. Here's what I have learned works for me.
  • Lock into a repeatable position.
  • If you can't find a repeatable position (I and most makers like the platen about belly high, arms at a 90° angle) then raise or lower your grinder.
  • Set the edge center by grinding at 45° using a worn 36-60 grit belt.
  • Lock your elbows into your sides/ gut (this is one area where having a little bigger gas tank for the love machine is a GOOD thing;)).
  • Move as much of your whole body side to side to make the pass as you can. Just moving your arms can lead to uneven thickness from ricasso to tip.
  • Concentrate on feeling the flat of the grind against the flat of the platen as you move that create the bevel up to the spine.
  • I like to keep a very thin gap between the edge I created and the belt as I move the grind towards the spine. I then come back to bring the edge thickness to where I want it later on.
  • The only aid I consistently use when grinding is a carbide faced file guide. It allows me to make my plunges even and removes one variable from the mix.
  • If I was starting over knowing what I know now, I would have bought a bubble jig from the get go.
  • You should be "in the zone" if you are doing it right. By this, I mean with the noise of the grinder drowning out everything else (or your hearing protection muffling out noise) you will be totally focused on what is happening with that grind against that belt. VISUALIZE what is happening. Your hands will tell your brain if you are flat against the belt, use that information to stay in the zone.

*** The following is not generally accepted advice I have seen, but it worked for me***

You shouldn't try to use really thick stock for early knives BUT (and this may be just my opinion) using thicker and taller stock (like 1/4" thick/ 2" high) can help you see and feel what is happening when you are grinding better. It also can give you some leeway to correct issues in one session. I'm not saying to make knives right out of the gate with thicker stock, but to learn, I personally saw a benefit. Maybe get yourself a 1/4" thick x 2" high piece of steel and make yourself a chopper. If it winds up less then perfect, it will still be a great tool around the yard.

Hope this helps. I know it can be frustrating, but practice makes perfect (or as close as mortal man is able)
Click to expand...

Awesome advice Kevin. I appreciate you taking the time to type that out for me. You know, it's interesting because I was thinking that making smaller knives with bevels that don't go very high up the blade would be easier than a regular-sized or larger knife. I like the chopper idea though. Mostly because I've been itching to take a crack at making one since I've started but thought I needed for experience. if I mess it up or not, it will be a learning experience regardless. Thanks for your input.
 
I'd say probably my first few dozen looked like crap. Took about 20-30 to get to the point I made more usable knives than scrap pieces.
A couple hundred later I still screw up the occasional grind... For some reason I've always found hollow grinding way easier as well
 
LINESIX said:
I'd rather pump out scrap than make a decent blade by "cheating."
Click to expand...
There is absolutely nothing wrong with using any mechanical advantage you can find to make a knife.
If it makes a better, more accurate knife - I use it.
Why do you think snipers use a rest? Would you rather they shoot off-hand to prove their "skills"?
I will always use a tool rest to create the base line profile and angles of my grinds. After those have been established I will switch over to hand-held grinding.
But I get everything dialed in at the beginning with every advantage I can use.
 
LINESIX said:
I'm familiar with his channel on youtube. He's pretty good at explaining things that a lot of other youtube tutorial guys fail to mention. Thanks for the link. I'll make sure to watch it.


Awesome advice Kevin. I appreciate you taking the time to type that out for me. You know, it's interesting because I was thinking that making smaller knives with bevels that don't go very high up the blade would be easier than a regular-sized or larger knife. I like the chopper idea though. Mostly because I've been itching to take a crack at making one since I've started but thought I needed for experience. if I mess it up or not, it will be a learning experience regardless. Thanks for your input.
Click to expand...

I'm hoping other, more knowledgeable makers give an opinion on the chopper idea. It's not standard advice by any means, but it helped me, mostly because on larger pieces, I find it easier to feel the flat of the grind.
 
I agree taller grinds in thicker stock on taller blades is about the easiest flat grind to learn, because of the increased surface area you have to index on the platen. I also agree with Geoff hollow grinding was (and still is for me) easier to do consistently, I think for a number of reasons (belts stay cooler, never chatter or flutter, easier to feel when you're in the radius for me than when you're on the flat).

The most challenging grind for me to do freehand, correctly, on the first or second try, is a short, flat bevel like a swedge or scandi grind.
 
The main part I still screw up at times is cleaning up the plunges. For some reason that in particular is far easier for me on a wheel. I almost never have issues there with hollow grinds, but at least once per batch I'll bump a flat grind over the edge, scratching up the ricasso and making a deep 2" line. Thats generally followed by much profanity and tossing the blade in the scrap bin.
 
Kevin McGovern said:
Always room for improvement, and I still booger up grinds from time to time. Here's what I have learned works for me.

*** The following is not generally accepted advice I have seen, but it worked for me***

You shouldn't try to use really thick stock for early knives BUT (and this may be just my opinion) using thicker and taller stock (like 1/4" thick/ 2" high) can help you see and feel what is happening when you are grinding better. It also can give you some leeway to correct issues in one session. I'm not saying to make knives right out of the gate with thicker stock, but to learn, I personally saw a benefit. Maybe get yourself a 1/4" thick x 2" high piece of steel and make yourself a chopper. If it winds up less then perfect, it will still be a great tool around the yard.

Hope this helps. I know it can be frustrating, but practice makes perfect (or as close as mortal man is able)
Click to expand...


My version of that is to use normal sized stock and fine belts like 400 grit, or if you have variable speed, go slowly

Use marker to markup the blade and eyeball after each pass - the shiny parts are where you grouind it off.
 
It takes 100 to get good, it takes 1000 to get really good.

Use the work rest, eliminates a couple of things to worry about.

Hoss
 
DevinT said:
It takes 100 to get good, it takes 1000 to get really good.

Use the work rest, eliminates a couple of things to worry about.

Hoss
Click to expand...


Do you think there's any danger inherent to using a work rest? I have a concern (maybe valid, may be not) about the pinch point created between the rest and belt. I keep my belt close to the rest when profiling, so most likely not an issue. Just curious on your thoughts on the matter. Thanks.
 
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