grip and retention with big knives

[jeffright]

I've mostly carried little peanut knives like my Case whittler, or an Opinel carbone folder. The biggest knife I've carried is a Morakniv for bushcraft. I've recently begun to desire a big knife, not just in the kitchen but for carry. I live in a rural area, where it is both practical and legal as long as I don't conceal it. So I ordered a few plastic/rubber trainers. I haven't received the subhilt yet, but I was working with the dagger and bowie. Although the trainers don't have the same weight as the steel knives, they do have a balance that is close. I was trying them out with some slashing and stabbing motions, because, well, let's face it, you don't get a Bowie just to baton wood or whittle some feather sticks. Because these knives are big, I realized there can be a lot of leverage from the end of the knife to your grip hand.

Look, if this Bowie was a little longer, it might work better with a two-handed grip. Maybe it's fine for chopping like a machete, but the clip point suggests piercing and stabbing. What I found with the trainer was that the Bowie was hard to handle stabbing anything that had much resistance. The dagger is shorter, has a slimmer grip, and of course it is going to penetrate better. Although it cannot chop or slash with the inertia of the Bowie's big mass, the balance point is just below the index finger so the blade handles much faster and the grip feels more secure without the weight so far forward of the hand. Now I'm sure that either one is vulnerable to disarm attempts, but it seems I'm more likely to self-disarm if I'm too wild with the Bowie. A powerful blow presents a lot of leverage to twist it out of my hand.

I have somewhat big hands with thin fingers. My hand is at least 7.55" long and 4" wide across the knuckles. I think I have fairly good grip strength, but it's something I can train more of. Aesthetically, I'm attracted to the medium-sized Bowies, but the balance on the dagger and I suspect the subhilt as well, feel more natural for everything but chopping.

I'm new to bladeforums, but if you do anything with the big knives besides keeping them in a display case, I'd love to hear what you think.

 

[marcinek]

Welcome.

... because, well, let's face it, you don't get a Bowie just to baton wood or whittle some feather sticks.

Well, yeah, many kinda do. I'd say immeasurably more use them for outdoor tasks than use them for knife fights.

That said, if you are finding the knife unwieldy, you really have two options. 1) Smaller knife. 2) Hit the weights.

Listen to Syrio...he knows these things.

[video=youtube;-rwPa3H1MFU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rwPa3H1MFU[/video]

 

[Rich S]

I've backpacked the Appalachian trail, mid section, for weeks at a time with nothing more than my Victorinox Deluxe Tinker and a 4.5 inch puukko. No need for a BIG knife IMHO. I also collecto puukko and have a few leuku which are the large, broad bladed knives used for skinning reindeer, building shelters, etc., but never needed one to use myself.
Rich

 

[22-rimfire]

As Marcinek says, use a smaller knife or develop more hand strength or both. Get training.

 

[jeffright]

I have a smaller knife, I am developing hand strength, and I'm training. I'm trying to step up to a bigger knife. I just got big trainers and I'm training. This isn't about whether I need a bigger knife. I could argue I could do everything with an axe and don't need any knife at all, but this isn't about what I need.

This guy really speaks to my point to answer why he prefers a Bowie to a dagger. Although I cannot exploit the leading edge and back cut on the plastic trainer, his explanation lays it out why the leading edge of a clip point is more effective than the two trailing edges of a spear point dagger. I'll have to try his method of thrust, backcut 1 and backcut 2. Although the 10" dagger trainer I have represents a knife without this capability, the Bob Loveless subhilt design does include a leading edge.

[video=youtube;azWerLBGqJg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azWerLBGqJg[/video]

I'm still not sure I'm comfortable with the weight-forward balance. The Loveless-style subhilt has the asymmetrical point that allows for backcuts with a leading edge, while still having the balance in the handle.

The other thing the video suggests, but doesn't fully demonstrate is the knife doing the work. Bagwell certainly doesn't make the kind of wild swings and huge chops that you see Lynn Thompson and others make in the Cold Steel zombie slasher videos. He doesn't slash through two carcasses at once, or chop ten lengths of one inch manila rope, but with a little snap cut and a flick of his wrist he claims he's making several fatal cuts. I don't doubt it, but the exploding watermelons and soda cans are more dramatic. What I found was that the harder I hit the zombie with the blade, the harder it was to hold onto the knife. The trainer doesn't cut or stab, but even a real knife hits resistance.

Now I understand that some people might be turned off the topic. They just want to discuss the latest super steel for their reality-based tactical folder mouse knife or how they can get gold anodized bling. Maybe not everyone wants to talk about how to slash zombie skulls without getting your blade wedged in and levered out of your grip. Fair enough, but I'm hoping someone will defend the merits of the Bowie's weight-forward balance.

 

[EricV]

Prac tac move eminent?

 

[marcinek]

Now I understand that some people might be turned off the topic. They just want to discuss the latest super steel for their reality-based tactical folder mouse knife or how they can get gold anodized bling. Maybe not everyone wants to talk about how to slash zombie skulls without getting your blade wedged in and levered out of your grip. Fair enough, but I'm hoping someone will defend the merits of the Bowie's weight-forward balance.

They are. Because its ninja fantasy. And your attitude towards people who think so, and have tried to help you regardless is insulting.

Try Prac Tac, killer...I'm out.

 

[marcinek]

Prac tac move eminent?

Hope so...then we can get back to discussing our solid gold, jewel encrusted fancy pants knives.

 

[jeffright]

They are. Because its ninja fantasy. And your attitude towards people who think so, and have tried to help you regardless is insulting.

Try Prac Tac, killer...I'm out.

I don't mean to be insulting, but in the first responses I got advice from a video game character, and the advice that I didn't need a big knife. I brought up the ninja fantasy because its part of the Bowie knife culture. To say that Lynn Thompson and Cold Steel have nothing to do with the modern Bowie knife just isn't fact. I contrasted their demonstrations with someone apparently more level-headed and realistic like Bill Bagwell, also another key figure in present day Bowie culture, but clearly a different part of the spectrum. I'm willing to dismiss the fantasy if we can discuss the rest of the Bowie. Or are you saying the Bowie should be dismissed for serious, practical use period?

 

[craytab]

Hope so...then we can get back to discussing our solid gold, jewel encrusted fancy pants knives.

Lol! I don't mean to be insulting but.....


Seriously though, this should get the move to prc-tac. I have a ton of big knives. Lots. I don't consider them weapons though. I carry a glock everyday for SD and I don't think I will need special training to fend off zombie hordes with my big knives....

(because they aren't real)

Some big knife pics for fun though:

 

[22-rimfire]

Jeffright, Most of us simply carry a firearm if we feel the need for self defense. You certainly have a lot more reach with the firearm and probably requires less training to be effective for normal day to day self defense situations. Almost everybody gets cut in a knife fight. Everyone doesn't get shot in a gun fight.

The merits of having the false edge sharpened on a bowie type knife, weight distribution and so forth is beyond my interest. The bowie does seem to have been designed years ago as a fighting knife and I think in part it was a mine is bigger than yours. And, yes, some people use bowie type knives for simply cutting stuff that needs cutting versus defensive use. The new Kabar EK would be the kind of knife (essentially a large dagger) I would choose for self defense versus a big heavy bowie blade. Most of the current military type knives are dominantly designed as a utility knife first with capabilities for personal encounters. You'll notice that the blade are mostly pretty thin in comparison to a large bowie knife.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I've trained with various large knives over the last decade or so. It's fun and pretty good exercise. People sometimes lose sight of the fact that not all martial arts have to be particularly practical (few are). Grip retention depends on a bunch of factors, including the knife in question, handle material, your grip strength and the kind of striking you're doing. Try adding some hockey tape to your trainers handle and see if that makes a difference.

 

[MaximIsayev]

Wouldn't a proper kukri be more suitable for that kind of activity? It's not made for stabbing, but it's has a lot more heft behind it and it excels at chopping and slicing.