Gross Motor vs Fine Motor skills

pict

pict

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Jan 7, 2003
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We spend a lot of time and posts here at BF debating the merits of big thick knives vs hatchets vs saws vs the medium vs the small fixed blade. It usually tends to boil down to Busse vs Mora, no you really want an F1, but then again a Bark River, give me a break my grandpa used a knife made from a train spike but his granpa split quartz with his head and it worked for him, cause I’m here now posting on BF.

Aren’t we really talking about gross motor skills versus fine motor skills?

Gross Motor Skills - The large muscles moving the large bones swinging the large tools to do the large jobs directed by the large brain.

Fine Motor Skills – The small muscles, moving the small bones, directing them to realize the potential of intelligent thought and reasoning.

Gross motor skills hold up well under fight or flight conditions when the body is supercharged with adrenaline and the refinements of the intellect are taken over by a much more basic reasoning designed to keep you alive right now. Gross motor tools need to be able to handle that strain and brain so choose wisely. In my experience economical axes and machetes hold up to that kind of work because they are designed to. Lots of knives don’t for various reasons but they are out there and will be for a long time because they fill a niche.

Fine motor skills separate man from beast as we have the God given ability to reason, reflect, plan, anylise, experiment, observe, and then execute the images formed in the brain to alter our environment. You can argue the merits of intelligent design 'til your blue in the face but we all do it and in that capacity we need tools that can carry that out in an efficient manner. Fine motor tools need to be accurate, sharp, precise, and allow for maximum control.

Survival could very well depend on either your gross motor or fine motor skills. It makes little sense to limit your selection of tools in a manner that will limit the expression of these two very different skill sets. The fact that these skill sets and muscle movements are so very different makes it very difficult to design a single tool that will work equally as well in both situations.

A weak tool could frustrate you in the use of your gross motor skills in the same way that a large clumsy tool could frustrate the execution of your designs. This ineveitably brings us back to the combination of tools best suited for the gross and fine motor skills we will need in the particular environment and doing and tasks we need to, to survive.

The crux of the matter isn’t so much tool selection as it is developing the SKILL aspect of your gross and fine motor SKILLS. The more you develop your skills the more you will gravitate to the type of tool you can get the most out of. Mors Kochanski with a paring knife is a better woodsman than me with my SBT.

Any thoughts?

Mac
 
Nice post Pict.
This parallels something that I've been trying to put in words for a while.
I think of it as "a sense of touch"
Not sure if you are born with a sense of touch or it is a learned thing.

This 'sense of touch' goes thru every thing.
When my pop was teaching me to paint he'd tell me to listen to the brush, listen to the roller. To feel what was going on and to remember the feel when it was just right.

The other thing he'd tell me was "Let the tool do the work"
He could work a hand saw and make it look effortless.
Same for hammering nails.
Fine motor skills make that possible.

The crux of the matter isn’t so much tool selection as it is developing the SKILL aspect of your gross and fine motor SKILLS. The more you develop your skills the more you will gravitate to the type of tool you can get the most out of. Mors Kochanski with a paring knife is a better woodsman than me with my SBT.
Click to expand...
No substitute for skills, gross, fine or otherwise.
One can have the biggest toolbox or the best single all around tool, but owning either is no substitute for skill.
 
That pretty much sums things up in a nutshell. It seems people tend to enjoy the mental masturbation of the one tool does it all mindset, in reality that is not so, the reason these different tools were invented in the first place.

I have said before on this forum that I can't think of a single reason I would find myself in the woods with just one tool and if it did happen it would more than likely be my pocket knife. IMO all of this strife about big heavyweight knives is just silly, no one is going to go to the woods with just a 9" knife, unless maybe your Bear Grylls. Chris
 
pict said:
Mors Kochanski with a paring knife is a better woodsman than me with my SBT.

Any thoughts?

Mac
Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not. I've experienced mild hypothermia, and when it sets in, say goodbye to fine motor. Even the great and powerful Mors would be shaking like a leaf in those conditions, you can't control it at all.

One thing that I like about Cody Lundin's books is that he does focus on this to a degree, and it's important to remember. My experience with hypothermia is one of the reasons that I always want a knife with a guard.

As always, YMMV.
 
I saw Bear on TV today and all he had was a good size folder. I saw him fold it up and stick it in his pocket. So much for folders not doing the job. He was in Africa.
 
That's why you carry two !! 4" for fine work , kukri for gross work !!
 
udtjim said:
I saw Bear on TV today and all he had was a good size folder. I saw him fold it up and stick it in his pocket. So much for folders not doing the job. He was in Africa.
Click to expand...

Sorry, whaat? oh boy, oh boy. that settles that debate doesn't it. :D
 
For a long time back in PA I carried a USMC Ka-Bar and did everything I ever needed to in the woods.

When I moved to Brazil I rediscovered the machete and it took over all the gross motor tasks very well. The large knife, my Ka-bar and later my BK-7 saw less and less use if I had a machete with me. I found myself wanting a smaller, sharper knife to do all the fine motor, detail tasks. I took to carrying Livesay NRGS necker. I still carried the BK-7 as my machete was normally on my pack or carried by someone else, paired with the NRGS it was a good combination.

When I started taking people out into the bush I settled on the Machete and a Mora. They worked great as a pair allowing the guys I was teaching to do both the gross motor brush busting and the fine detail bushcraft tasks they were learning. I'm sure there are other blades I could have put into their hands but not for a total cost of $25 a student. Now I carry my Skookum Bush Tool and a Tramontina and I'm perfectly happy with the combination.

As far as the one blade concept that can make good use of both gross motor and fine motor skills I have been moving away from it. I have used my BK-7 in the role of a machete and it does do the job, but nowhere near as effectively as a machete. I have also used it to carve trap triggers and other bushcraft work and it does do the job, but not nearly as well as a Mora or the SBT.

I can press a machete into service to do detailed work and it is clumsy but passable. On most of my machetes the bottom 2 inches of the blade is set up with a super sharp scandi grind that I have found useful when working close to the handle.

I have also dropped small trees with a Mora and it is possible. If you are patient and work within the limits of the tool you can do alot by doing alot of a little (if that makes sense). Beavers seem to do it, it just takes them a while.

If you develop your skills you will develop your prefrences as well. I think it is important to be teachable and learn from those who are doing. Mac
 
Sodak,

The Mora's I put into the hands of people new to the bush all have guards. I'm more worried about them doing something stupid than getting hypothermic here in Brazil. Most of them have never handled a sharp knife before.

I have been very hypothermic in both cold/wet and dry/wet condtions and have never failed to get a fire going for wrong blade choice. I'm just assuming here but I'm pretty sure Mors K has been hypothermic at some point. I don't give it alot of thought here unless I'm going to hike into the mountains in winter where temps can get down to below freezing. Mac
 
Good post, pict. Looking at survival from a physiologically-based perspective is refreshingly interesting :thumbup:

"If you are patient and work within the limits of the tool you can do a lot by doing a lot of a little (if that makes sense). Beavers seem to do it, it just takes them a while"

This is an apt analogy and a concise way of summarizing the one-tool-for-all-jobs mentality. I've no problem with this train of thought, so long as the person develops the necessary skills along with it. One necessary skill is adaptation and improvisation; bushcraft and survival are centered around this skill.

Reading your posts, pict, allowed me to realize why I disagree with those who believe that a small, folding knife is the only tool needed in the wilderness. When in severe, cold weather, fine motor skills and upper reasoning abilities are the first things to go. When a person starts to become hypothermic, they have a 10 minute window in which their hands will function. After those 10 minutes, the hands become unusable and their death is not too far away... Relying on a small folding knife in such a situation is imprudent in the extreme. In the tropics and warm climates, hypothermia isn't necessarily a big problem. In mountains and northern climates, and around water, hypothermia can quickly become a major consideration. Since most of my wilderness activities are centered around the Rocky Mountains, I'm always thinking of how best to stay warm. This, as well as survival training, has made me a proponent of large knives over small knives, and one of each instead of only one :thumbup:
 
I have been camping and living in the woods for 60 years and not once yet have I had to drop a tree or chop fire wood with a knife. I chop branches off of walking sticks with a big knife at times but usually use a saw or hatchet. Much faster and easier.
 
As I lurk here, it seems the debate continues over large and small knives and usually stops with personal preferences. I have been teaching my sons to handle both sizes and as they are both teenagers (can I have a BIG knife, Dad? Puuleeeze??!), it has been apparent that they can't do anything with either size knife if they don't know what they are doing. Gross motor or fine motor, they must understand what to do to survive and be able to do it efficiently/effectively.
Thanks to you guys I have learned a lot and have the pleasure of sharing knowledge with my boys.
 
Just like a logical, friendly thread discussion should be! This is the model thread for all others in the forum IMO. We hashed out a statement without any negative posts, way to go folks!
 
Great Post Pict!

That pretty much explains why I carry a Mora(or other <4" knife) AND a Hatchet/small Axe.

This way, Neither Gross or Fine get frustrated.:thumbup:

Personally, having just a large knife, would frustrate both my Gross and Fine. But of course, not everyone is like that, some people are quite capable of making just one large knife complete both tasks.
 
EXCELLENT post, Mac. Lots of worthwhile things to think about there. :thumbup:

Having a tool selection is a great thing...as long as you are safe with the tools you select. Amazing how many people leave the wilderness mountains where I live, that have put themselves in to a real survival situation by severe self-inflicted injuries (usually involving large knives, axes, chainsaws, poor driving). The gross motor skills need to be approached with thoughtful caution and a great quantity of focus. Having extricated my share of these people from the wilderness as a SAR helicopter pilot, the cause of these injuries was always interesting to me. Most always the victim was the young male and relatively inexperienced or, they were older and in their comfort zone, "I have done this for years!" Lots to be said for focus and concentration of skills even in the recreational setting where many survival situations occur.

Good stuff, Mac!

-Danny
 
I got to think as to where my blades are physically most of the time when I am working with them.

With My Mora's, NRGS, SBT etc, they are usually about a foot away from my face held in front of my chest and the bulk of the work is happening right there. It is very rare that I do anything with a knife and where else in relation to my body.

When I use a machete the blade moves from over my head to all the way out to the ground at times but usually the target is three to four feet in front of me. This movement involves back and legs and hips and creates large sore muscles. By contrast all the fine motor stuff I do creates callus'

As I have said before here on BF, I'm not against the one blade concept. I have used it and made it work. I wouldn't hesitate to fall back on it either. For instance, if I were headed up to the Amazon I would take my BK-7. I wouldn't take it in the place of a machete but as a PSK/Knife I know I would leave strapped on to my belt all day. As a machete it has the same defect as the 10 inch Tramontina, its just too short to allow me to use it efficiently. It cuts when it connects, but its like driving in first gear.

In the same way working in the fine motor zone, right in front of your face/chest, you can do work there with a machete or large SPB-type knife. You can use all sorts of choked up grips and grasp the spine and you can get the job done. You can also use a folder or a small fixed blade or a Mora and actually enjoy the task at hand.

I see alot of guys who are really into the SBP type knives refer often to gross motor tasks such as splitting, shelter building, prying apart stumps for fatwood, breaking ice, cutting off car doors etc. Those aren´t the kind of tasks that go on for hours on end. I have used large knives in those roles and been perfectly happy. As soon as that task starts to run into hours rather than minutes the physiology of it all starts to take a toll.
My BK-7 is great for cutting loose from the occasional snag or thicket, but to walk for hours trying to create a trail? That's torture.

Geography (as in materials encountered) and physiology drive tool selection more than anything. I think it is simplistic to say its all just personal preference. I have seen people prefer to do stupid things all my life. Perfectly viable choices in one reigon may be woefully inadequate in another. The best bet is to know what your about with a SAK, small fixed knife, SPB, hatchet, axe, machete, and saw. They're just tools, it is skill that makes them magic. Mac
 
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