Ground Fighting w/ Knife / Gracie

Joined
Dec 9, 2001
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There's been a few threads here and there regarding ground fighting / combat and knife use.

Several folks I know currently train in ground fighting via the Gracie school of thought. They are also knife players, as well.

Any of ye in the Forum into ground fighting on a regular basis and likewise incorporate knifework?
 
Check out Hock Hochheim's tactical knife videos from TRS. Part 2 of the series deals with ground knife fighting.

There is a difference between ground "fighting" and ground "grappling". If you have the knife, forget about grappling and just focus on using the knife to neutralize the bad guy so you can get to your feet and escape. If the bad guy has the knife, control the weapon limb and use viscious counters such as eye gouges, and groin grabs to get an escape. If you both have a knife, be sure to control his knife as you use yours on him.

Steve
 
szorn brings up good points. The problem is many people believe that learning "vicious counters" is all that is needed. Gouges and groin grabs etc are a joke (by themselves)against grapplers who train realisticly because they will establish the control necessary to strike, break or stab you at will. Learning the underlying concepts of grappling anf developing attributes are more important and useful than specific techniques, but this only comes through training. Gaining control of the weapon bearing limb is difficult and even more so if one does not have the necessary skills to control their opponent's movements and arm. This requires a lot of training. Greg, who are your freinds training under? Rorian (as I understand, I trained under his brother) is an excellent instructor and can present info and concepts very well, I don't want to comment on other aspects of his personality. I prefer not to call my training ground fighting, I refer to it as grappling as we work all aspects from entry, clinch, takedown/throw and ground fighting.
 
I have about 9 years in BJJ and have been wrestling sporadically for about 20 years now. Recently I started learning a little Silat and Escrima. However, I feel most comfortable using a handgun as a supplement to grappling. I feel confident that my grappling skills can handle most individuals. What worries me is a situation where the opponent(s) are armed with a knife or gun. In those circumstances, I feel that pulling a gun is the best defense. It is also the best defense for handling multiple attackers. The problem I feel with blade usage is that it utilizes one of my hands, which I would rather have empty in order to successfully grapple. Also, if you pull a knife on an individual, he has the right to pull a gun on you. If that happens, you're screwed. That's why I think the empty hand systems coupled with a gun are the best way to go. I am biased toward boxing, wretling and BJJ, along with .45 autos or a small J frame S&W. The advantage of a small gun in your front pocket is that you can grapple successfully without your weapon getting in the way and/or falling out of your pants. Let's face it, most emcounters you'll face will be unarmed encounters, so it's best to prepare for these. Just keep a gun with you, just in case it gets nasty.
 
I would rather not have the "my system is better than your system" debate. However, you tend to promote some common misconceptions such as: "gouges and groin grabs are a joke", "gaining control of the weapon bearing limb is difficult", "this requires lots of training", etc. My question would be, where have you been training?? If you are talking about fighting in an NHB event, you may be right but out on the street it's a whole new ballgame. First of all in a real life-or-death altercation it's not likley the good guy will ever be facing a BJJ practitioner or a grappler in general. How many criminals do you know train in BJJ? Generally criminals have little interest in spending time training in any form of martial arts, they find it easier to get guns, knives, etc. Yes, learning the underlying concepts of "grappling" has value but it most likley won't be used on the street when the s*** hits the fan for real. Gouges and groin grabs have successfully helped people survive life-or-death altercations all over the world, moreso than "grappling". Gouges and groin grabs are easier to learn and takes less effort to use or retain. Grabbing the weapon bearing limb is another fairly simple tactic that has been used successfully out in the real world even by people who have had no formal defensive training. Just watch Polive Videos on tv and you will eventually see footage of some poor guy being attacked with a knife who "accidentally" grabs the weapon bearing limb and disarms the attacker. When dealing with a knife attack you have two basic options, you either pass/deflect/redirect the knife or you grab the weapon bearing limb. Which option sounds most logical to you? I can tell you that using the first option while on the ground will eventually get you cut to shreds, period.

Remember, there is a difference between fighting in the ring and fighting for your life. On the surface the training may appear the same, but the end goal is ultimately different.

Steve
 
The attributes of grappling (good base and balance; knowing to control the head and hips, etc.) carry over into everything else. Without a good grappling base you are extremely deficient. I've let guys try to eye gouge me and go for my groin. Nine times out of ten it doesn't work. Once in a while it does. Sure, you can use those tactics on untrained individuals; but against a good grappler, don't bet on it. Also, I think a lot of guys these days you encounter WILL have some grappling training. A lot of guys play football in high school; they may try to charge you on the street; you never know. Wrestling is a lot bigger in high school than it was 30 years ago. Since the UFCs, the wrestling program at my old high school has seen a drastic increase in enrollment. More than likely, though, I think the bad guy will use a weapon of some sort; in that case, you better rely on a gun for defense. Handguns rule the street. By the way, I'm on the same page with armlock: to me, grappling is not just groundfighting; it consists of all aspects, from takedowns to maneuvering through multiple attackers, to gi and no-gi, to incorporating boxing, etc. A lot of guys bad mouth grapplers; in my opinion it is still the single best form of unarmed fighting, bar none. Once you learn it, the rest comes easy.
 
Gouges and groin grabs are easier to train and retain, but if thats all you got in the bag you better have a whole lotta luck.
"Grabbing the weapon bearing limb is another fairly simple tactic that has been used sucessfully out in the real world even by people who have had no formal defensive training"
Sounds to me like they got lucky :)

As for "where have you been training?? I also don't want get into my style v. your style. My handle is armlok and I formally trained BJJ for 4 years and continue to train, but not in a BJJ specific academy. In my JKDC training I have been exposed to lots of weapons training and so I understand the "options" available when dealing w/ a knife. I've seen passes, redirects, deflections, strips etc that are total @#$%, patty-cake drills and @#$% just don't cut it. I agree grabbing is your best bet, but when I train w/ a big strong 250lb 6'2" guy trying stick my w/ the training blade (in a fully uncooperative manner:)), I better have some skill dealing with that kind of strength. The concepts and attributes developed from grappling HELPS. Hell, I once pulled off a X-block/ wrist lock/throw w/o getting touched by trainning blade years ago,against a full out resisiting opponent who was also a BJJ purple, if I was a fool I would base all my training around that.

Ad, ya gotta love the J-frame and 1911. The new generation is so enamored by G-locks and Sigs or USPs. A S&W MOd 60 goes anywhere in shorts and tanktop w/ no one knowing any better.
 
HEY !!!!

I'm a member of the younger generation on this fourm, I'm under 40!!!!
:D :cool: :D

I'm 23 and I use a S&W 640 sometimes.

Just cause they invented it before 1988 does not mean its out dated.

Don't blame all of us in the younger generation for forgetting the ways of our elders.

Some of us are willing to give the old ways a shot.

Provided that the thing we shoot is made of polymer, had a hicapacity magazine and tritium night sights with a kydex carry rig.
 
Good stuff posted so far:)

I've enjoyed the opportunity to have trained in a number of different styles and arts over the years. My introduction to BJJ was through Rickson Gracie, and frankly having spoken with other members of the family and with their students / instructors, I still find Rickson's views the most objective and fair-minded when it comes to not only Gracie JJ, but combatives in general.

I agree that having a basic grasp of the concept of grappling and ground fighting only makes you a better player in the real world of street or war fighting. At the same time if one has the opportunity to integrate arts such as Kali/Escrima, boxing, and firearms work with grappling then the final product - provided the instruction and practice is of reasonable quality - is solid self defense / offense.

Erik Remmen, a noted Hwa Rang Do instructor, developed a pocket knife self defense program using Spyderco Delicas that - when properly trained and worked - will defeat the grappler or street brawler who takes you off your feet or confines you in limited space via the knife. Erik is quite good at ground fighting and his program takes advantage of that skill in teaching one how to defeat such an opponent on the ground. As many have said in the past, once you introduce a knife (or any viable weapon) into the fray the advantage goes to the man/woman with the weapon.

I have recently met Marcelo Alonzo from the Carlson Gracie School of BJJ. Super nice fellow and he did some good training for our group a few weeks ago. Weapon take-away and retention thought processes. Simple, easy to sustain in-house, and effective. Good instructor - meaning he is capable of transfering his knowledge to the student effectively and at the student's level and need. Marcelo teaches Special Forces personnel in the Ft. Lewis area and his classes are well received for obvious reasons.

Rickson told me many years ago now that fighting in the street using GJJ is far different than the sports applications and UFC concept. He offered - in print via Full Contact - that if faced with a street fight he would break / dislocate his opponent(s) limbs and use other exceptionally destructive techniques to escape and survive. Rickson also shared his appreciation for his SIG 220...which tells us a lot right there.

I recently chatted with another GJJ instructor who is a very nice person and well qualified by what I could see on the wall to teach what he does. However, like many traditional instructors he is of the belief that it takes at least a year to teach a student how to use the art effectively. In my experience this is true for beginning students and such, but for those with solid CQB or self defense skills + an understanding of SD concepts, the learning curve regarding ANY art is vastly shortened. Rickson taught me how to apply two chokes and an arm bar within a few short hours at his home, and I've used the techniques successfully in street fights since. Cops and special operations personnel purchase specific programs off the shelf these days and the instructors who get the business are first and foremost aware of the higher quality of fitness, drive, determination, and skill level(s) certain student groups already possess. That's what makes a 15 hour program effective if the instructor/students are inline with eachother outside of the traditional "you sign with me for one year and i'll teach you how to feel my art and use it effectively" approach.

Some folks fight every other night and do so effectively sans formal GJJ or any other form of professional martial arts instruction. I know one out of shape cop who has yet to lose a street fight - and he's fought some truly bad characters who are presently doing serious prison time - because he knows two basic techniques better than anyone else on the department and he executes them with lightning like speed and power. I've watched him do this a few times and it's pretty darned impressive. I'd offer his response to "train with me for a year so you can learn how to fight" would be less than complimentary.

In any event a good blend of effective arts/techniques really gives one the best overall package, to include handgun kata work:) That and a Verbal Judo course or two makes for the best overall SD package I've found.

Agree, too, with the J-Frame thought process. A good J-frame with effective SD rounds and some good in-close shooting instruction is pretty hard to beat. I prefer a shrouded hammer, myself. And I like a steel frame as opposed to aluminum or titanium.

Keep it rolling!
 
Greg,
Great post. I completely agree w/ your comment"if one has the opportunity to integrate arts such as Kali/Escrima, boxing,and firearms work with grappling then the final product - provided the instruction and practice is of reasonable quality - is solid self defense / offense." Most of my formal BJJ training was focused on Non-sport BJJ, we used H/K/E and low line kicks. We learned to control the arms and awareness to prevent the intro of a knife or control the weapon bearing arm.
Rickson's comment are spot-on, most people judge BJJ only by UFCs and sport tourneys. Don't get me wrong, if a solid blue or higher (sport) let's loose on you w/ bad intent, you better have your @#$% together, but there is much more to jits than playing guard, armbars and triangles (which I suck at) :) My JKDC instructor is a puple under the Machados, he keeps encouraging me when we practice and compliments my "street" JJ game that I learned in BJJ.
Also I MOSTLY agree w/ "but for those with solid CQB or self defense skills + and understanding of SD concepts, the learning curve regarding ANY art is vastly shortened". But many (that I've met) are lacking some key concepts and skills to use those techniques they learn. Which is why I prefer spending a majority of time (in a limited time situation) passing on the concepts and development of skills necessary to be able to adapt a FEW tools to different situations and enviroments. With this knowledge they can go on and continue to develop (on their own time as permitted)the skills and are more easily able to perform the few techniques they learned.
As for the J-frame, I tell people who ask my opinion, "If you need more than 5-rounds, it's not self defense, it's a war" :)
 
I'll throw in my two cents worth. I'm now sixty years old, so will give the "senior perspective." Up until a couple of years ago I was still an avid weight lifter and student-practitioner of various martial arts. Back about 1994 I attended a weekend seminar conducted by Rorian Gracie which was a real eye-opener for me. What I learned was that I was getting old, and that if I ever let myself get in the clutches of someone like Gracie I was pretty much done for. Since then my physical strength and health have deteriorated even more and I realize that when I'm out and about I am probably viewed by predators as a prime victim. Luckily I'm very experienced with guns and my state allows CCW. My backup weapon is the knife. My plan for a self defense situation is to use either weapon as a surprise. This requires a constant state of alertness, of course, because if I am taken to the ground without having accessed either weapon, then getting it out of it's concealment location will be either very hard or impossible. My plan is to play the terrified victim, try to get either the gun or knife into play, and then make the first strike or shots as lethal as possible. My hand-to-hand fighting days are over, and besides that, trying to whittle away at someone as skilled as a Gracie would only get me very quickly killed.
 
My Grandpa was a boxer during the depression, with a little training in wrestling. He was the toughest man I ever knew and he had been in many fights. He always carried a small handgun everywhere he went (usually a .25 auto). When he drove in his car he kept the gun in his shirt pocket. His rationale was that if someone came up to his car he would shoot the guy in the face and drive on. He's also the first guy to tell me (when I was about 5 years old) to get someone onto the ground, sit on top of them, control their hair with one hand, and punch them in the face with the other until they are completely out. This worked well for me a few times as a kid and once when I was an adult. These days, however, I am aware that I may be opening myself up to some problems if I do this (friends, weapons, etc.) I still think it's vital to know how to grapple, though. If you know how to grapple, you can pretty much dictate where the fight takes place, which is extremely important.
 
Many great points in this thread...

I think I've been training under the same "train with me for a year" Carlson Gracie instructor for a couple weeks. Sierra is quite correct that he's wanting to teach the art from the ground up, so to speak. It's being taught primarily as sport jiu-jitsu, which is ok, I just have to be sure to remember opportunities for tactics other than straight-up grappling during class.

Basically, I just really need the practice/mat time. I have very little non-BJJ grappling experience, and am not so good at it. I regularly get SMOKED in class while grappling with the other students.

BUT, an interesting illustration for me took place just three days ago. I went to visit friends in another town. One of them was playing around with me, and got me to "wrestle" him. Now, I think he's a good example because he's somewhat experienced in wrestling, and outweighs me by about 50lbs (not flab.) Although not determined to injure me like a street opponent might be, he has the type of fistfighting and wrestling experience which are commonly encoutered in our culture, and he was bigger than me. In this respect, he may be somewhat representative (physically) of a person likely to aggress against me.

Anyway, he punched at me, I ducked it and shot for the double-leg takedown and got his legs, but didn't pull them because I wasn't sure we were playing that rough yet. He sprawled on me (apparently, we were playing that way). We scrambled a little bit, and he mounted me, which I immediately reversed, leaving me in his guard. I passed his guard to the side mount and right away caught his arm in an Americana/key lock. He rolled to his stomach to get out of it, giving me his back. You know the rest...rear naked choke. Time elapsed, maybe 15 seconds.

So my point is, I really agree with whoever said that people you will most likely have to defend yourself against just don't really know BJJ/submissions. And the training regimen for a police officer/SD minded citizen learning groundfighting IS different from a person who wants to compete in sport BJJ or even NHB/MMA events.

Finally I have a question that perhaps Sierra can answer. A great amount of BJJ type training is on joint locks and chokes. How do these techniques figure into the legalities of self defense? Specifically, say you are in a stereotypical confrontation involving no weapons, but simple physical force (your attacker has punched you/is trying to continue to do so). Somehow, it gets to the ground. Is it justified to apply some joint lock/arm bar and break or dislocate one of his limbs to stop him? It seems like that degree of injury might be viewed as an escalation of force. What about chokes? Clearly, a BJJ practicioner might not be intending to kill an attacker with a choke, but merely "choke him out." Generally, however, I think attacking the neck is more legally serious than attacking some other part of the body. I know I'd take it more seriously if someone attacked my neck in a street confrontation.
What are your thoughts on this, guys?
 
Good question -

In the most general of terms anytime you become formally "trained" in the martial arts there is a presumed liability as to what it is you can do as opposed to the untrained brawler or flared out citizen. This includes techniques, their applications, and what the technique may result in injury wise.

Chokes can kill a person intentionally or otherwise. For many police departments the submission choke most often taught in the academies is a formal portion of the Use of Force policy. And, in many cases, the officer cannot use the choke except under specific circumstances and ONLY if he or she has been trained under the auspice of the department in the application of said choke.

Other departments have done away with this choking technique simply because they don't want the liability as opposed to teaching and sustaining their officers' skill level in using the choke if necessary.

Joint locks are good but clearly there are some that can and will dislocate / break a joint badly once applied with sufficient force and speed. The circumstances of the confrontation will determine a great deal according to the general "what would a reasonable person most likely conclude and do" under the circumstances that were known at the time. Street fights and fighters don't often "tap out" and agree you've beat them fair and square. And if it's multiple attackers the equation changes dramatically. And if you fight back, and appear to be fighting back successfully, the escalation of violence directed against you often increases on the part of the attacker(s). So, learn well and act accordingly.

Many, if not the majority of instructors are content to teach sport applications of their art(s) and cardio-fun hybrids for the "I wanna get healthy" crowd that thinks they are learning self-defense while doing jazzercise in a martial arts dojo. Other instructors - and students - are seeking pure offensive/defensive physical training in close quarters combatives for whatever reason(s) they might have. As noted earlier, with the limited time I had with Rickson Gracie - and he with me - he asked what I wanted to learn and I told him. He taught me. I retained the knowledge, and sustained the lessons through practice. I've used those lessons and techniques on the street since and done so successfully. It didn't take me a year (bear in mind I had a way solid CQB base to work from before seeing Rickson) but only a few hours.

I recall teaching a certain private student of mine how to shoot a handgun CQB better than many cops I know and did so in roughly a day:)

Again, the most important quality an instructor in any art can have is the ability to transfer his knowledge and skill to a student needing specific training, or general instruction. Frankly - and I've said this before - all too often the people who need quality self defense skills and confidence are all too often those who don't have a year's dues to cough up; don't have 3 days a week, one hour a day to visit the dojo, and need the ability RIGHT NOW. These are the folks who are penalized by traditional martial arts instruction, which is first and foremost a business anymore and hence requires long term financial commitments in order for the instructor to stay in business.

Fact is, you can teach folks how to fight and fight well in a very short amount of time if that's your motivation and desire. Kelly Worden does this: Paul Vunak does this; Rich Chen does this; and I've done this for both individual and group clients / friends / comrades in arms.

As Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch says, "It ain't good, it ain't bad, it just IS."

Train on and learn what you want from the program, and maintain what it is you believe you'd most likely need / use. Learning and improving are the objectives of the serious student/teacher. Then make it all work for you:)

As Mushasi wrote - know as many weapons and arts as you can. In the end this knowledge shows you what you can do, should not do, and have to do if faced by opponents whose tactics, techniques, weapons, and skills you recognize from your studies.

On another note -

I like Grandpa's thought process. One, a .25 auto in the hand of a man who is willing to use it and can use it will do the job before one even knows a job is being done. Two, a very talented and wise Silat instructor once told me that the best defense he's seen is a barrage of fast and furious punches to the head. My Wing-Tsun instructor identified himself as a "head hunter" when I began training with him (old style San Francisco Bay Area martial artist of the 60s era of American Martial Arts). He loved bridging the gap through fast, articulate footwork and then blasting his opponent's skull senseless. A totally disarming looking man I was way impressed by how adroit he was / is at getting where he wanted and needed to be in order to turn one's lights off. Deception, Surprise, and Cunning are seldom taught by sports instructors...but these are traits ALWAYS taught by fighting instructors.

Rock on...:D
 
I enjoyed reading this thread very much. Thanks to all the posters...great stuff.
 
kali teaches you to fight with live blades whether standing or during grappling.

Kali6.gif


LeoWade.jpg


Grand Master Leo Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia Kali teaching US soldiers knife fighting in the Philippines in the ongoing "Balikatan" military excercises:

Control_to_terminate_2.JPG
 
Nice pics, Hank. We do a lot of takedowns and some ground work in the system I practise (Filipino Combat Systems/Sayoc Kali with Guro Ray Dionaldo).
 
What an extraordinary thread.
I found myself nodding in agreement time after time.
Without shorting the very good points made by everyone who has participated, I found myself nodding especially vigorously to the points made by Ad, armlok, Greg and wlf.

My son has eight years of judo, and only one year of jujitsu as taught by a Marcello Gracie instructor.
My son recently fought and defeated a Marcello Gracie instructor, not his own, in a recognized Pankration event.
My son could do this because he has a strong interest in these types of things and because of the solid foundation of principles he learned from judo.

Somehow this relates to Greg's officer acquaintance who has two tricks that really work for him.
I doubt if those two tricks would work for everyone.
I suspect this officer has a deep understanding of the principles involved.

Tricks will work for a natural fighter, or someone who has made it his life's interest to study fighting.
Such a person can incorporate and apply these tricks out of body wisdom, or keep them at surface readiness on top of a solid foundation of principles.
The average person, though, should carry a weapon.

Like other aging atheletes, I had my bad dog time.
Now I represent little more than a tasty morsel for real bad dogs now enjoying their time of physical superiority.
For that reason I carry a self-defense folder and a stainless steel S&W Bodyguard.

I cannot imagine a situation in which I would resort to the self-defense folder.
Still, the situation which I cannot imagine might materialize some day, and I will then have a self-defense knife on my person.
For the record, though, if I had to defend myself against either of my son's judo teachers, or against most of my son's fellow jujitsu players, I would not let them know I had a knife: after they broke my arm they would only do something rude with the knife.

Since I do not work as a law enforcement officer I would have little constraint regarding breaking a street attacker's arm.
As a private citizen, I might do so out of fear.
On the other hand, I work in a hospital environment and I could not see myself injuring a patient in self-defense.
In that case I would try to remember what I learned from the Verbal Judo book to which Greg referred earlier, and also what I might have learned from Management of Agressive Behavior (don't remember the author).
I also think my years of judo might help me to control most attackers for awhile, especially given a hospital setting with lots of moral and physical support.

I would conclude with the thought that the kife represents a desperation weapon applied best with the advantage of surprise.
In most imaginable cases I would prefer two empty hands or a handgun.
 
My Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu instructor in Rio once told me that he preferred fighting empty-handed than with a knife. He's been totally immersed in this system since he was 6 years old and has never received any training in the defensive use of edged weapons, so I understand where he's coming from. But personally, I believe any weapon is better than bare hands in a life-or-death situation (that won't stop me from practising unarmed combat though).
 
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