Group survival kit.. Suggestions needed.

skammer said:
Hey Thomas,

How many Mass continental disasters you lived through?

As I thought, your opinion is noted.
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Thank you for noting my opinion. Your opinions have value to me if only because they provoke discussion and get some to think through what they need to do and may be forced to do -- in the first instance and in the last extreme.

"Mass continental disasters"? About as many as you have Skammer -- and about as many as are likely in my lifetime and yours combined. But I have lived thorugh eathquakes followed by fires and looting and large riots in two different cities. I just don't see every stranger as a threat and every casualty or relatively "weak" person as someone to be dumped because they don't "contribute."

Group dynamics can break down in even small disasters, I saw fist fights in stores before a hurricaine pitting neighbours against each other.
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Absolutely. So? That does not support your lone wolf approach. Group dynamics "break down" frequently. People get in fights - even riot - after their sports teams lose -- or win. One solution is group action, not scattering to the wilderness and leaving the mob in control. (By the way, can we speculate that the folks indiginous to the wilderness may not greet you with total acceptance?)

Don't talk yourself into the group hug mentality because people will do what they need to survive. If it gets bad enough they will come after your stuff.
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"Group hug"? Not likely, but a group is typically stronger than the individual if proper leadership is available. You seem all too ready to write off the group and head to the hills.

"If it gets bad enough": history teaches that "if it gets bad enough," the strong may very well sacrifice to save the weak. That conduct is a good survival characteristic because the weakest are the children who insure the survival of the race.

History also teaches that in some cities in mass starvation, order did not break down. Therefore, as matter of human experience, your speculations may not come to pass.

Will we ever see such a situation? Who knows my crystal ball is on the blink. BUt I do prepare for much more than a 3 hour blackout. Millions of people in a small area with little to live on is a not good thing no matter how you work the numbers.
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All too true, and your concern about preparation, as such, is a good example to us all. However, some, like HK2001, would prefer to be prepared beyond caring only for themselves and beyond running, even if it should come to that in the end.

In my experience a weeks worth of food and water and odds and ends is more than 90% of the city population has prepared. This fact in itself says something about your own security should TSHTF.
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A point you have already made, and a good point. But some disagree with some of the conclusions you draw about responding to the risk.
 
I see your crystal ball is running fine thomas. ;)

Nice to see you know exactly what will happen at any given point in time and its effects.

IMHO survival is about planning for the unknown as best you can not basing ones point of view on historical facts.

Is a group situation better than lone wolf? Absolutley! Never said it wasn't.

Would I count on it? No! But prefer it.

If you want to hedge your bets on others fine don't let me influence you. People I plan on being with are like minded and prepared, bring skills and/or materials of value into the mix. Those who don't are dead weight and of little value to me and drain scarce resources.

This is the way I see it you or others have every right to see it any other way you please.

For those who care a really great PDF file on Survival Medical is available for download.
www.aussurvivalist.com/downloads/AM%20Final%202.pdf

Skam
 
skammer said:
I see your crystal ball is running fine thomas. ;)

Nice to see you know exactly what will happen at any given point in time and its effects.
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Your opinions should be considered by anyone contemplating the fragility of our society and economy. Better to consider these issues in advance than to react without thought or preparation.

But, of course, I did not, and do not, claim that I know what will happen in ten minutes, much less "at any given point in time" -- except for some points of time in the past. However, I guess that when I peer into the crystal ball, I see less darkness and more light.
 
skammer said:
In my experience a weeks worth of food and water and odds and ends is more than 90% of the city population has prepared. This fact in itself says something about your own security should TSHTF.
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Which, of course, is why they have evacuations before hurricanes. The unprepared can leave town. Leaving the prepared and the crazies to face the hurricane on their own.

Chad
 
HK,
Keep us informed of how you decide to proceed with your Group Survival plans. It's a topic/project I'd like to follow...
 
Will Do Ras.. we're currently looking at everything we have, and I'm showing them how to really use it.

I also bought 4 very large ammo boxes (caliber unknown, they were painted over) The boxes themselves are approx 3ft long, 2.5ft wide, and 2ft tall. I'll be keeping the food stores in them. They can be used as underground / under water fridges, ovens, and such in a pinch.

Which, of course, is why they have evacuations before hurricanes. The unprepared can leave town. Leaving the prepared and the crazies to face the hurricane on their own.
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Actually, inland evacuations are never done here. There are only 3 areas that EVER get evacuated. #1: Areas in danger from tidal surge #2: Low lying areas in extreme risk of flooding.. this dosn't really apply to my part of florida, there's not much elevation changes anywhere around here. #3 Mobile homes.. "snow birds" mostly. 99% of people "evacuating" have no need to, haven't been told to, and cause nothing but headaches for state and local officals.

Add to the fact that people have work, school, and what not to attend. You can be legally fired from work for not showing up, even DURING the storm so evacuation is NOT an option for most people, prepared or not. Shelters are a much more feasible option, but they offer no advantage over staying at home. A typical shelter is a highschool gym, or a cafeteria.
 
Happy Joe said:
...Evacuation whenever possible would be best before big storms, make frends in wide spread locations and don't arrive needing any thing more than some space...
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This is the truth... hurricanes do NOT sneak up on you, the way earthquakes, tornados, blizzards, or floods do.

If you're think you'd still in your apartment when the hurricane hits, might I suggest the first thing you buy (maybe today) is a television or radio?

If a hurricane is approaching the area--and you're not a first responder or part of a medical team--get OUT. That's got to be the first rule of survival: don't put yourself in harm's way.

Let's not lose the forest amid all the trees, here.
 
If a hurricane is approaching the area--and you're not a first responder or part of a medical team--get OUT
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As I've said.. this is the main reason for this kit.. because legally, we CAN'T get out. I work, and I attend college fulltime, as do most of the people this kit is designed for. Employers can be forgiving, allowing you to miss a day or two of work (most don't, btw) in case a storm hits. But for college, we are required by law to attend classes so many hours a term. I've seen many students fail because they bug out to georgia, or fly home for a few days. As I said earlier, I've also seen people get fired for not showing up to work WHILE the storm was right over them. Hurricane Jeanne made landfall here at about noon, on Sept 25th. It raged over this area well into the night. I had work at 4pm EST that day, and I showed up.. after driving through the F'n hurricane. 2 people on my shift didn't show up, and didn't have a job anymore.

The airports don't typically open for 48-36 hours after a storm, roadways are either closed, blocked off or over congested with traffic. "getting out" is not an option most people can take.

This is the truth... hurricanes do NOT sneak up on you, the way earthquakes, tornados, blizzards, or floods do.
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Tell that to the people in Punta Gorda who got completely blindsided by Charley.

The fact is, other then knowing the hurricane is out there, you don't know much until it's to late. By our best guesses, a hurricane could be headed straight for Miami, and at the last second, take a quick turn a wipe out Daytona.
It could be a tropical storm, and suddenly build strength to Cat. 3 while just 100 miles off the coast.
Hell, it could be moving across the ocean at 20mph, and suddenly halt to a stop, leaving your house under the the NE eyewall (most dangerous area of a hurricane, as I'm told)

The fact is, we have no idea how bad a storm will be WHEN it hits, and where it will hit until it's way to late. A category 1 hurricane moving at 5mph is much more dangerous then a category 5 moving at 50mph.
 
YOu may not know exactly where the storm will hit within 12 hrs but you sure as hell have a pretty good idea.

Any employer who fires you for protecting yourself should be sued. Find a new job. I skipped seemingly entire semesters of college and did well.

I fail to see the rational of putting yourself in harms way for a mere job.

You'll be dead but educated I guess.

Its this exact reason why I would NEVER live in a predictably disaster prone area I just don't understand people honestly.

Skam
 
I've added a few pepsi stoves, and 2 gallons of denatured alcohol to the kit. This, combined with a propane grill should cover us for food/water prep. obviously, if there were some reason we needed to move, the grill probably wouldn't be able to come with, so these stoves cover the Bug out option.

One of the girls in the group was able to get 8 ALICE packs from her father (he deals with Milsurplus) and we've stored these in a spare internal closet here. Each roughly contains (prices included where avaible):
----10 homemade MRE type foods. (approx $1.50 each)Each contains:
"entree": rice, beans, Ramen, spices, freeze dried meat. Just add water.
1 Packet of oatmeal
1 packet coffee.
napkin, spork, and hotsauce, courtesy of Tacobell.
small stash of TP
desserts from Mil MRE.
----Cheap Inova X1 TYPE flashlight, bought on Ebay w/ 3 spare batteries($6)
----10x8 Olive Drab tarp ($5)
----spare clothes, as needed. (Free)
----2 bic Lighters (.50)
----Knife of some type (varies per person) (Free, they were already owned)
---- Small fishing kit, hooks, line, sinkers, etc ( >$2)
----1 liter Denatured alc. ($2)
----bandana (.25)
---- bottle of 50 water purification tabs ($5)
---- 1 liter lexan container ($2)
---- Pepsi can stove (Free)
---- Antigravity gear 3 cup cookset ($25)
---- 50yds, Paracord. ($2)
----Hydration bladder ($10)

I'm adding things to the bags as needed. I have on order copies of FM21-76 for everyone but me (I have one :p )

Things I know I need for each bag:
Anti Bug gear.
First Aid kits.
Radio.
????


I've decided that splitting up the kit like this is better then taking a "base camp" mentality.

I still have the excess food, and water (and other things as well) here, in case we stay and take on more people, but in case of damage to the apartment, violent people, packs of dogs, whatever.. we are prepared to bug out.

I think next weekend we may go out and put this gear (more importantly, the people) to a 48 hour test.
 
That looks OK to me for a basic kit for urban type people in a fix.

It would be a VERY wise move to practice how your group manages on their individual kit.

I don't know the ages or types of people that will be going on this exercise, but one thing to be wary of is the "sacrifice" mentality that gives the youngins extra food/water/comfort by the older members of your group, particularly knowing that they will only be stranded for 48 hours or so.

Insist on a before and after kit check to ensure no extras are stuffed in pockets or packs. This is a training exercise for the real thing, and must be treated seriously and with integrity.
All members to keep a diary, and must have an entry for each move, each meal, each unusual occurrence. e.g. "my shoelace broke, I should have put new laces in my sneakers", " I cooked my beans for 10 minutes, but they were still hard" and so on.
This will ensure all details are recorded and oversights and errors fixed for the real thing when you debrief the group.
I am sure you have thought of these basics, just a reminder, and congratulations on taking the initiative for your own and your group's survival. You are to be highly commended in my opinion!
Too many people will be looking for the "authorities" to look after them in a natural or man-made disaster scenario, and will be astounded when the power fails and nobody answers 911. (or '000' in my country)

I would be extremely obliged if you would publish an "after action report" about your group exercise, how it went, what problems were encountered and solutions. We can all learn from this.
Best wishes.
 
Ditto the "after action report". I like the alice packs and multiple individual kit idea.

If it were me I'd also be talking to the neighbors in the immediate vicinity of the base camp. They could be critical to the eventual success or failure of the camp. The apartment over yours is your roof...
 
Arlene should be the perfect opportunity to test your system, assuming it isn't more than just a dry-run (pun intended ;) ).
 
For backup firestarting... I carry a little magnifying glass. Only works when sunny outside but it works great when it is.

MaReX
 
I carry a 10x jewlers loupe in my first aid kit.. I use it for removing splinters and such.. although I've never tried it, I'm sure it works well for firestarting.

Arlene will miss me by a long shot (so they say....) which kinda ticks me off. The rain and lower wind speeds would be perfect for seeing just how our gear and what I'm teaching them stands up.

We just had 7.5" of rain dumped on us in 48 hours last weekend, and I'm kinda upset we couldn't gather to do it then.
 
Yatzee anyone!!

Don't forget moral. Being cooped up with a bunch of people can get boring and dangerously stressful very quickly, especially if there are young one around, crying, etc. Makre sure you have some playing cards, age appropriate games that are simple and entertain everyone. Stress = disaster.

Also, baby wipes, in case you loose running water. That same group of people could get real nasty, real soon. And that's where the ground rules come.

Draft out some ground rules that the "camp" will live by, just as if it were a hunting camp, lodge, etc. Remember, you are taking on a group of roomates, so make sure everyone knows their role and their responsibilities to the rest of the group, "bathing", non-smoking, etc. It might not bother you, but it could seriously bother others and again you have stress and there's alreay enough to deal with in that situation.
 
The test went well.. 48 hours in the bush and everyone survived.. lol Everyone got a major grasp on survival. Acting as a group, they were each able to start a fire, build a shelter, eat, obtain water, and everything else.

The only major incident was sunday afternoon one of the guys in our group decided to fish for a bit and got nailed by a cottonmouth.

All in all, it's looking good.. hopefully if SHTF.. we'll be ok.
 
HK, Much as I appreciate a brief and concise report, a little more info would be good.
Did you encounter any shortfalls in equipment? Any failures?
How did the morale factor go? What will you be modifying in either approach or gear for the preparation for the real thing?
What did you forget or what did your group want that wasn't there? etc, etc.

Like many of the inhabitants of this forum, I am well prepared for the "lone wolf" survival scenario, but I don't have a real big plan for group survival, and all hints gratefully received.

This thread has generated some genuine real world discussion, and that is what it is all about. A point that many 'lone wolves" have probably not considered is that they are far too decent human beings to leave others stranded, and the knowledge of the group survival problems and solutions could be vital.

Over to you HK. You've "been there, done that" as the T shirt says :D
 
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