Guard stock width

Brian Avila

Brian Avila

Joined
Jan 2, 2011
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So I have never been to a real knife exhibit or show, so I have never been able to see the finish and proportions of some of the hunters a Bowies. And I haven't been fortunate enough to visit with a journeyman smith or a master smith and see one of their knives up close. So I can only guess and mess up some material in the process so far.

I am working on some hidden tang knives with guards which is a new territory for me. I was hoping that some of you could chime in and tell me about the thought process when I comes to the width of the guard material for knives that are 1/4" thick at the guard/ricasso as well as knives that are 5/32" thick?

I have messed up some slots and I think I can get it close enough now to where the next one will probably, hopefully, work.

3/4" wide maybe?
 
Weatherman,

I was making a guard for this bowie today. The knife is 1/4" at the ricasso. I decided not to go with a sculpted guard this time and opted for a flat guard and spacer configuration. I considered several thicknesses for the guard but settled on 5/32" (4mm) thick for this particular knife. The shape was done by eye but the width turned out to be 21mm and the length is 70mm. I felt the width was sufficient to accommodate a comfortably wide handle. After marking the location and dimensions of the tang just behind the ricasso, I drilled and filed to hole to fit the tang. Only after fitting the guard blank to the tang do I sketch on a shape for the guard. This is because if your hole comes out a bit crooked you can simply adjust the angle of the guard shape to match the hole. Once you have the guard blank fitted to the tang you can draw your shape on the blank to see how it looks on the knife. If you have chosen a piece wide enough you can revise your sketch wider or more narrow as you feel necessary. When you are happy with the proportions and shape just cut it out and file or sand smooth.


 
IMHO a lot of guards are to thick.
It´s a matter of taste but old knives usualy have quite thin guards
 
I agree with the above. Most guards are way too thick. If you taper the guard into a curved finger guard, or shape it into sweeps with diminishing thickness, that is fine.....but if it is just an oval of metal sticking out, much more than 1/8" looks heavy and clunky. As with anything, relevance of scale affects your choice. An 18" blade bowie can have a much heavier guard than a 3" bird and trout knife.
 
I prefer 3/4." Many knives will require it to be taken down narrower, but it's a good starting point.

Many suppliers sell it in 1" width, which for me, means there's going to be at least 1/4" of wasted material every time... that's why I don't usually buy it from knife supply houses.
 
Look up "the rule of thirds" and "the golden mean" or "golden ratio" as they apply to photography and building design, among other things. The principles provide some insight into proportions that just look "right".
 
james terrio said:
Look up "the rule of thirds" and "the golden mean" or "golden ratio" as they apply to photography and building design, among other things. The principles provide some insight into proportions that just look "right".
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That had not occurred to me. That is a very good rule of thumb ( the rule of thirds )
 
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For me- it's what feels good in the hand, and looks right to my eye.



I have heard a lot of folks mention the Golden Ratio... but I've never heard anyone explain how to apply it to making a knife.

I get the jist of it----- Phi, 1.618...., Fibonacci's sequence- 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, etc.

But I don't know how to utilize that in my knife shop.
 
NickWheeler said:
I have heard a lot of folks mention the Golden Ratio... but I've never heard anyone explain how to apply it to making a knife.

I get the jist of it----- Phi, 1.618...., Fibonacci's sequence- 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, etc.

But I don't know how to utilize that in my knife shop.
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I will agree with you on that, the ABS youtube page put up a video of MS Kevin Cashen talking specifically about daggers and the golden ratio came up. Even after watching the video, I am not totally sure about how to apply that concept to knife design.

After searching some, you hear about blades with 3" length and a handle of 5", or a handle length of 5" and then a blade length of 8" for say a bowie.

I am pretty good with math too, and I have did some ideas with just the ratio of 1":1.618..." and if you apply that to say a ricasso area or even a guard lengths, widths and thickness come out overly big from what I can tell. Which lead me to start thinking about this thread. I am pretty sure that I am missing something in a search, or in a conversation, or I just am not involved enough in the knife world and see other makers work first hand to be able to answer some of these questions that come to my mind.

I don't want to necessarily make something to small and find out that it should have been bigger, but I could always make something big and then reduce the size. I try to plan it out as well as I can and then make it.
 
Be careful about following magical formulas without understanding application. The human eye is magical enough. Trust it. If it looks good it is probably good. Some people have a better "eye" than others. But if we all followed what was popular at the time we never would have had the Van Goghs, Goudis and Warhols of the world. A knife is a little different than art for art's sake though. It is also a tool which must fit the hand and perform tasks properly. As long as the knife works as a tool and fulfills your creative vision it is probably good.
 
i4Marc said:
Be careful about following magical formulas without understanding application.
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Right, it's not a recipe. Just a way to get a grasp on proportions. Look around and you will be surprised how often those concepts (not necessarily a precise formula) apply to stuff we use every day.

I'm not talking about art for art's sake at all. Frankly I have almost zero use for art knives anyway.
 
For example, the height of the guard above the spine to the depth below the ricasso or whatever focal point is present looks good when following the ratio. Handles look and feel good when the height and width follow the same ratio. Same deal with pin placement in a handle. A single pin dead center looks wrong, but 1/3 the way back on the handle looks better.
 
Everyone's eye is different. For me I like 0.375" x 0.75" for bigger knives & 0.25" x 0.625" for smaller knives. Onlinemetals.com is the best place I have found to buy guard stock. I wish someone would have told me that awhile back. I have some really thick stuff I got from knife supply sites I paid too much for I'll probably never use.

For the golden ratio application, I like to take the total blade length (from guard to tip) and divide it by 1.618 then take a straight edge and put in a little bit of a drop or a clip from there to the tip. It's probably pointless but it looks right to me. If this formula is in everything around us it makes sense to respect it.
 
I wanted to point out that I wasn't saying it's not worth looking into or applicable... but I have never seen or heard a clear explanation on how to utilize it when drawing/building a knife. Hell, it's possible that I use it unwittingly, LMAO.

I know enough about it to know that Shaw's avatar and logo is the Fibonacci spiral which is ~the Golden spiral. ;)

There have only been a couple knife makers I knew that swore up and down the Golden Ratio/Mean/Rule was the rule to live by, and I thought their knives were butt ugly. Now since damn near everything in nature is supposed to fall within the ratio (like, for instance, a Sunflower blossom)... I'd hazard a guess those guys are trying to use the ratio, but not doing it correctly.... but IDK. :confused:


BTW- Marc, that blade has really nice lines and I like your guard shape as well. :thumbup: :)
 
NickWheeler said:
I wanted to point out that I wasn't saying it's not worth looking into or applicable... but I have never seen or heard a clear explanation on how to utilize it when drawing/building a knife. Hell, it's possible that I use it unwittingly, LMAO.

I know enough about it to know that Shaw's avatar and logo is the Fibonacci spiral which is ~the Golden spiral. ;)

There have only been a couple knife makers I knew that swore up and down the Golden Ratio/Mean/Rule was the rule to live by, and I thought their knives were butt ugly. Now since damn near everything in nature is supposed to fall within the ratio (like, for instance, a Sunflower blossom)... I'd hazard a guess those guys are trying to use the ratio, but not doing it correctly.... but IDK. :confused:


BTW- Marc, that blade has really nice lines and I like your guard shape as well. :thumbup: :)
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I know it is easier to do it "properly" on a grid layout like when doing graphic design. I'd say for sure you use it unwittingly. A lot of people probably do unknowingly because its ingrained in our subconscious.

Happy Thanksgiving!
 
Nick, I think the curves of the bellies of your knives and the flow of the handles follow the ratio beautifully. It was the first thing I thought of wheni saw your knives a year and a half ago.
 
"BTW- Marc, that blade has really nice lines and I like your guard shape as well. "

Thanks Nick. That means a lot to me.



To be clear, I wasn't saying not to use "the rule". My point is similar to what others have stated. If this golden proportion is indeed found throughout nature and in man-made objects (I don't dispute that) then it is programed into our DNA. If you are a person who has a good sense of line and proportion then you will have the confidence to do things by eye. Chances are many of your proportions may fall close to the golden ratio, unconsciously or otherwise. If you break the rule you are probably doing it deliberately. For those who are not as inherently sensitive to line and proportion you may want to refer to the golden proportion for a good starting point. In any case, the message to the OP is to trust your eye when it comes to figuring out the proportion for his guard. If he doesn't have the confidence for that then give the 1.618 ratio a try.
 
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