Guilt trip Manipulators --- an answer

Guilt works great, my Mother is a master at it and every once in a while I find myself using passive aggressive techniques to get what I want from my daughter rather than just asking. Maybe I'm training her for marriage?:eek:

I have come to realize that outright asking puts you at risk of rejection but that guilt tripping someone allows you to avoid that risk because you technically never asked. Please note that I am NOT endorsing using guilt trips to get what you want but clarifying why some people use them.

personally I decided that if I would have helped someone anyway, it makes no difference how they asked; directly or implicitly. If they want to think that they fooled me let them. It doesn't affect the truth.
 
munk said:
Something deep inside tells me that this person will probably never truly change his selfishness>> Jimmy J

And sometimes we help knowing that. There are lots of ways people are handicapped and hurt in this world, and it is always a good thing to recognize.

Even people I thought would never change have, some for better, some for worse.

When I read these kind of threads, I usually ask myself, "'and thou?"

The best manipulators aren't caught.


munk

I believe the problem is that I let this all build up without doing anything about it for so long.
So long, in fact, that it numbers over two decades of me seeing that it was happening, and my hoping that somehow it would change on it's own (believing so was probably an error on my part).

This long term situation, among other serious differences between us, have definitely put a very bad strain on our relationship. So much so that I no longer call him, and he no longer calls me.

As much as this situation feels wrong to me, it actually felt worse to try and maintain a relationship with my brother.

In other words, as bad a situation as it may seem to not be communicating with my full blood brother (it does bug me that it had to reach this point), I also feel a peacefulness that I never felt before.

I don't have all the answers, but maybe sometimes it's best this way.
You may love someone, but it does not neccessarily mean that you will like that person. That seems to be my feelings towards my older brother.......... I do truly love him,.................. we grew up together, same household, same parents, many of the same memories, and yet in most ways we are like oil and water.
Some prefer to keep a strained relationship over no relationship, and some feel it would be best to let go of a overly strained relationship.

I guess it depends on the persons and their own situations. With mine, I must say that overall it feels better to have basically finally cut off our strained relationship.
But, this is what seems to be best for us now, and who knows what the future may bring.

Do I feel "some" regret that we are not able to work out our differences?............... Yes! But if something were to happen to him tomorrow, would I feel that I should have tried harder?............... no. I honestly feel at peace in knowing that I have swallowed my pride more times than probably anybody would feel comfortable in doing to try and save a strained brother to brother relationship. I have forgiven what many may feel was no longer forgivable,............ all in the name of saving an already strained relationship that was clearly very one sided from the get go.

Maybe, just maybe, it may be better to just let go when something is not worth holding onto. He will always be my brother, we just can't get along the way we should.

I was thinking once to myself, had he not been my brother, I would have hated to have had a person like him be my neighbor.

I will always love him, but I hold very little hope that we can ever be true
friends (though there is always that "little" hope, I do live in the real world, and it may be that it just ain't meant to be).

When something hurts too much, should one finally let go, or should one forever keep trying? I guess each situation is different, and each individual would have to make that decision for himself/herself.
After over twenty years of noticing how bad things were, it seems that my final decision is to stay apart and live our own lives in our own worlds. If ever there is a real crisis on his side of the world, I'll be there,................... in the end, he will always be my brother :)

PS.

It may be hard for some to relate to such a fracture between brothers.

I can give endless examples to show how little by little it just went from bad to worse.

Doing that would be senseless, but I will share a few experiences that gives further glimpses of why I have resorted to such a drastic breakoff with my brother:

When my brother and his first wife were going to have their first baby (my Niece), I was right there at the hospital the night she was to deliver.
I was young, maybe 17-18, and I'm sure that I had some fun things that I could have been doing, but I felt I needed to show up to support and represent for my bigger brother. He is my brother, she was my sister in law, and the baby was about to be born and be my niece,.............. I simply "had" to be there!

Fast forward some years later. My wife is about to have our child. Though my brother lived a 3 hour car ride away, he knew the situation because my parents had called him to inform him about it.

Well, my child was born, but no Uncle was around.
No big deal, maybe he was seriously too tied up at the time to make the trip down.

Then my child turned 1 year old,............... but has yet to meet Uncle. Okay, maybe he's had a busy year ;)

Now my child is to turn 2 years old,................. not yet met Uncle,............. but heck, people live busy lives, right? :)

My child was then about 2 1/2 years old, and finally meets Uncle! Not because he finally came down to us, but because we went up to visit him. Though I was ticked off inside, I never let him know about it (I probably should have).


My brother would come down to our town to pick up or visit his daughter from his first wife. When he came down, often he would stay overnight at our house before heading back his way in the morning. I did not have extra rooms, so my wife and I always insisted on giving him and his new wife our room and bed, while my wife and I would crash out on the living room floor. We always did this, and they unwillingly accepted.
When we went up to visit them at thier house, they too did not have the extra room, but forget us being treated like royalty, we only got offered the floor!

This double standard has been a constant in our adult years as brothers :(
 
kamkazmoto said:
I have come to realize that outright asking puts you at risk of rejection but that guilt tripping someone allows you to avoid that risk because you technically never asked.

Mark this down in BIG BOLD LETTERS!

It is exactly why the most powerful response you can make iS "ARE YOU ASKING ME TO......"

Try it. You will be AMAZED. Post your feedback here in this thread.
 
All this direct stuff will have about the same result; asserting yourself and revealing plainly what the person is doing or asking. If they don't like being seen, they may put you on the bottom of their list. Why be uncomfortable with the truth when you can slip-slide around and enjoy the good life?



munk
 
JJ your post reminds me somewhat of my relationship with my sister. Its sad, but we don't speak much anymore. She is as opposite of me and my wife as one can be. I'm amazed at her speach, her thought processes, her lifestyle, her appearance, the choices she makes, etc. When she's down she lashes out and hurts others. I'm just kinda scared of being too close when the house of cards collapses. I love her dearly, but she literally scares the hell out of me.
 
aproy1101 said:
JJ your post reminds me somewhat of my relationship with my sister. Its sad, but we don't speak much anymore. She is as opposite of me and my wife as one can be. I'm amazed at her speach, her thought processes, her lifestyle, her appearance, the choices she makes, etc. When she's down she lashes out and hurts others. I'm just kinda scared of being too close when the house of cards collapses. I love her dearly, but she literally scares the hell out of me.

Thanks for sharing, Andy.
Sorry to hear that you have a similar situation.

It is tough, but we can only do so much I guess,........ we are only human.
 
This thread really hit home.
A neighbor of mine, tells you in the first 5 min of a meeting that he has cancer. That was 10 years ago.
When I bought this place, it came with an old,old, lawn tractor with some dragging implements. I tried to get it running with no luck. Another neighbor asked if he could have the old tractor for his son to play with. I agreed, but than the aledged cancer neighbor stopped me and asked if he could have it as he fixed tractors for a hobby and he could use the tractor and implements to grade and clear up his country cabin. OK, IF it is agreeable with the other neighbor who was only going to use it for his little boy to crawl and play with.
He picked it up, couldn't fix it, took it to a shop and complained about how much it cost to fix. He has a separte building he uses to (so I find out) to buy old big tractors, COSMETICALLY repair them, tinker with the carb, repaint the whole thing and resell.
He couldn't get his driveway clear one winter dut to heavy snow storm. The tractor wouldn't push the snow so he asked me if I could clear it with my snow blower. I did the job with little thanks.
In the meantime I had purchased a new lawn tractor. After several years, I was having trouble with it. gummed up carb. I asked the neighbor if he could look at it for me. He had all kinds of excuses and when I reminded him of the favors I had done for him, he reluctantly drove over and sat in his car pouting. Eventually he said he couldn't fix it. Needless to say, we don't talk except briefly when we meet at the mail box. He starts his story of his hard life and I reply, we all have our problems, let me tell you about mine. That ends the conversation............
BTW, I eventually got the carb cleaned and adjusted by a local repairman , cost me $20.00 and it was a house call.
LOL
 
It sure does feel good to help other folks out.

I can't even count the times that I have pushed cars to safety, jump started vehicles, gotten people's car's out of being snow stuck, changed peoples tires, driven them to safety, helped them bring furniture inside their homes, and so many other seemingly miniscule favors that put a smile, not only their faces, but mine as well.

Though I love helping people out, I had one neighbor that constantly asked for something (sugar, eggs, milk, car rides, and so many other things). I did not mind helping her out at first, but it got to the point where she could not see my face without proceeding to ask me for something,......................... the word "pest" comes to mind ;)
 
JimmyJimenez said:
It sure does feel good to help other folks out.

I can't even count the times that I have pushed cars to safety, jump started vehicles, gotten people's car's out of being snow stuck, changed peoples tires, driven them to safety, helped them bring furniture inside their homes, and so many other seemingly miniscule favors that put a smile, not only their faces, but mine as well.

Though I love helping people out, I had one neighbor that constantly asked for something (sugar, eggs, milk, car rides, and so many other things). I did not mind helping her out at first, but it got to the point where she could not see my face without proceeding to ask me for something,......................... the word "pest" comes to mind ;)

Wow, Jimmy, this post and your previous ones really ring a bell. I refused to be used by people. I have gone out of my way again and again only to be treated with the same contempt that you have described.

My wife and I baby sat her older brothers children for years. Once or twice a month from the time they were infants until they were 7 or 8, and we never accepted a penny. We loved the kids and would take them out, entertain them, all on our dime. I made $15K and my wife made $12K. When our son was born we finally got around to asking for them to reciprocate. They obliged us by sending their now 12 year old daughter around, and letting us know she charged "only" $4 per hour! They immediately went on my s*&t list where they still remain.

I had a "close" friend in college. He moved 5 times in 4 years, and each time I was there. The moves would take all day, and I would work my butt off. The last time I even rented the truck. My wife and I moved for the first time together in 1984, when she was 8 months pregnant. The night before this guy phones me and tells me he "feels bad about it" but he has plans for the next day and can't help me move. My wife actually tried to help me carry the sofa up to our new second floor apartment. Of course I could not let her lift anything. I started at 6 a.m. and finished moving everything in and upstairs, by myself, at 10 p.m. I never spoke to that SOB again. You find out who your true friends are on moving day.

Life is too short to put up with users, manipulaters, and BS artists.

Norm
 
We have all run into the manipulators, the users. Other than shutting down commuication with them has anyone tried the simple "Are you asking me to .....?"

I would be willing to bet that the people who use you ---- I know those who used me almost invariably used the same approach. They DID NOT ASK for my help. they laid out a nasty scenario and I volunteered. Think back carefully and be aware in the future. Did they ask? I bet they didn't.

Did they have the cods to say, "I will be moving Saturday. I want you to show up at 8:00 am sharp, bring your truck, moving boxes, and friends. We will spend a grueling day in the hot sun moving heavy and fragile things. I won't be that much help because moving really skags me out. The most you can expect, and I may forget this also (sakagged out) is that if I get hungry enough, I MAY get you a taco for lunch. I will be more concerned for my TV if you or I accidently scratch your truck with it than the deep gouge in your new truck. I hate moving and will do everything in my power to forget this awful experience, so never expect a thank you, nor will I help you when you need it. And don't even think about complaining because I am going through much worse than you in moving my home! But BE there at 8:00 am, understand?"

They DON'T do that!

To ask is to create a need to reciprocate, even among the most hardened a-holes. To ask is to face the possibility of rejection.

They don't actually come right out and ask. They make you THINK they asked, but I bet they didn't

Therefore there is no debt created. No need to even thank you.


From our posts I reckon that most of the people here are good people. We are "fixers." Someone states a problem and we state an answer! RIGHT! How do I know? Hey, I am one of you!

Since I have been trying this response I have found that more people are venting than asking for my help.

BUT:eek:

I realize that I am falling into my own situation. I am offering help that has worked for me and most of y'all are venting. Hmmm. I am not asking for a "thank you masked man."

What am I doing here?

:confused: Please excuse the "strange interlude." :confused:

I am going to do some rehab execises.

Y'all take care now ya hear?
 
Svashtar said:
My wife and I baby sat her older brothers children for years. Once or twice a month from the time they were infants until they were 7 or 8, and we never accepted a penny. We loved the kids and would take them out, entertain them, all on our dime. I made $15K and my wife made $12K. When our son was born we finally got around to asking for them to reciprocate. They obliged us by sending their now 12 year old daughter around, and letting us know she charged "only" $4 per hour! They immediately went on my s*&t list where they still remain.

Whew-eee, now that, sir, is a great example of how some people in this world can be.

I find it so alien to behave in such a way.

If just for a minute I place myself and wife in those persons shoes, how could I not find a way to help you! You were able to help me out so much with my children, and for us to then not try and seriously help you when you're in the same kind of need,................. well, it's just unthinkable!

Though I understand that people are and can be different from one another, this particular sort of behavior is so wrong that I just can't even imagine relating to how they can be that way. How does someone rationalize such decisions?!
I wonder how their brains work? Is it many different reasons, or could there be one main reason that they use to rationalize their behavior?
Do they really not realize what hurt they are doing, or do they know but just don't care? Do they actually do it to use people in every sense of that word, or do they somehow not mean any ill intent whatsoever?

My way of thinking is so far from the behavior we are speaking of, that it's simply mind boggling to try to understand it all.

Something I did last week that is sort of related to this topic:

I had to get my car towed to my mechanic's shop because my starter went bad. The starter was replaced last year by the same auto repair shop, guess it just decided to crap out again (it was not a new starter they had put in, but a rebuilt one).
Anyhow, the next day I get a call from the shop owner's underling (a person I vaguely know), and he tells me that it was the starter, and that the car should be ready for pick up later that evening. At around 4 pm I called to see if it was ready, and the underling responded with a yes. I asked how much it would be, and he said that he had charged me for the towing (which he gave me a break on), and the installation labor. He also said that they looked in their computer records and noticed that the starter was still under warrantee for another 3 days. I guess the part had a one year guarantee and still had three days to expire.

I've been screwed over by other mechanic shops before, but these guys always seem to do the right thing. They could have easily returned the part for a replacement "AND" charged me for it, but these guys always seem to do the right thing by their customers.

When I went to pick up the car, I brought the underling a small token of my appreciation for their honesty and services. I could have given him a $10 tip or something, but instead chose to give him a brand new Khukuri House Service #1. I gave him this, some literature on khukuri knives, and one of the VCD's I had that covered how these types of knives are made.

He was honored, and being that he is a mechanic, he sure liked the fact that the knife was probably made from a vehicle leaf spring.

How does this relate?............... I think there are people in this world that give and receive, and then people that just receive or take.

I'm glad to be one of the persons that greatly appreciates and feels honored when receiving, and that feels a great pride and joy when I'm able to give :)
 
Bill Marsh said:
We have all run into the manipulators, the users. Other than shutting down commuication with them has anyone tried the simple "Are you asking me to .....?"

I would be willing to bet that the people who use you ---- I know those who used me almost invariably used the same approach. They DID NOT ASK for my help. they laid out a nasty scenario and I volunteered. Think back carefully and be aware in the future. Did they ask? I bet they didn't.

Did they have the cods to say, "I will be moving Saturday. I want you to show up at 8:00 am sharp, bring your truck, moving boxes, and friends. We will spend a grueling day in the hot sun moving heavy and fragile things. I won't be that much help because moving really skags me out. The most you can expect, and I may forget this also (sakagged out) is that if I get hungry enough, I MAY get you a taco for lunch. I will be more concerned for my TV if you or I accidently scratch your truck with it than the deep gouge in your new truck. I hate moving and will do everything in my power to forget this awful experience, so never expect a thank you, nor will I help you when you need it. And don't even think about complaining because I am going through much worse than you in moving my home! But BE there at 8:00 am, understand?"

They DON'T do that!

To ask is to create a need to reciprocate, even among the most hardened a-holes. To ask is to face the possibility of rejection.

They don't actually come right out and ask. They make you THINK they asked, but I bet they didn't

Therefore there is no debt created. No need to even thank you.


From our posts I reckon that most of the people here are good people. We are "fixers." Someone states a problem and we state an answer! RIGHT! How do I know? Hey, I am one of you!

Since I have been trying this response I have found that more people are venting than asking for my help.

BUT:eek:

I realize that I am falling into my own situation. I am offering help that has worked for me and most of y'all are venting. Hmmm. I am not asking for a "thank you masked man."

What am I doing here?

:confused: Please excuse the "strange interlude." :confused:

I am going to do some rehab execises.

Y'all take care now ya hear?


Bill, can I be frank with you for a second here?

"Are You Asking Me To" use your method in my own dealings with these sorts of people?

LOL! ;)

Just joking with you buddy :)
 
JimmyJimenez said:
Bill, can I be frank with you for a second here?

"Are You Asking Me To" use your method in my own dealings with these sorts of people?

Only if you feel guilty enough! :D :D


We can start a whole new series about being frank. Sometimes this is a very hard thing to do. You know something that a friend needs to know about himself, but you don't tell him because you think he will be embarrassed or feel threatened.

So you don't tell him and then you build a "blind spot" in your communications with him.

Anyone want to know about this? Ask me!
 
Most men say yes out of the fear of saying no.

Some of this anger should be self directed for not knowing how to say no.
The animosity is disproportionate to the crime.

Then you have those who over-relish the punishment they deal out. This makes them feel big and in control. They seem to record these events as if a string of victories, and relive them over in their minds. The overreactions and punishments are presented as proof of masuline virtue, when they are actually evidence of cowardice and small mind .

>>>>>>>>>>>>

We build up anger. Then when we're finally ready to change ourselves, to make a stand, we overreact. Some hapless dog gets all the frustration built by the last 23 wheedlers and manipulators.

Assuming there are still a few human beings left on the planet, many people can be taught to act better, to grow themselves. You don't have to make this a career, just tell them 'no' and why, may be the first time they see themselves through the eyes of another, see themselves clearly.

munk
 
munk said:
Most men say yes out of the fear of saying no.

Some of this anger should be self directed for not knowing how to say no.
The animosity is disproportionate to the crime.

Then you have those who over-relish the punishment they deal out. This makes them feel big and in control. They seem to record these events as if a string of victories, and relive them over in their minds. The overreactions and punishments are presented as proof of masuline virtue, when they are actually evidence of cowardice and small mind .

>>>>>>>>>>>>

We build up anger. Then when we're finally ready to change ourselves, to make a stand, we overreact. Some hapless dog gets all the frustration built by the last 23 wheedlers and manipulators.

Assuming there are still a few human beings left on the planet, many people can be taught to act better, to grow themselves. You don't have to make this a career, just tell them 'no' and why, may be the first time they see themselves through the eyes of another, see themselves clearly.

munk

I must admit that I personally don't say "no" very oftenly, and that's whether someone asks up front, hints about it, or even if I just realize on my own that someone could use my help, and then I simply go out and help them.

I say "yes" out of generousity, out of good will towards my fellow man, I do it on behalf of my religious beliefs, and simply because it feels like the right thing to do :)

On the very rare occasion where I do say no, I'll have a good reason why:

*Maybe it's that I want to assist, but I'm unable to do so (there are times that one has a valid reason to say no to someone you would otherwise love to say yes to).

_or_

*Maybe I feel the person has taken advantage of me one too many times, and I no longer want to play the sucker.

That last reason, (not wanting to play the sucker), is usually something that I find pretty easy applying when dealing with non family. Admittedly, I find it much harder applying the word "no" when it involves saying it to a loved one (the situation with my brother being a prime example of this). I would never continually put up with feeling treated second rate by someone I considered a friend or by an aquaintance. But, being that I was brought up to always be there for family, I find it much harder to say "no" to someone as close as my brother. I was brought up with certain values, and these values are sometimes hard to go against, even when your gut tells you it may be okay to do so.

Most times I just say "yes".
But,................ most times these folks are the type that later show their appreciation by offering to help you out in return when you may find yourself in some sort of need :)
This is the "one hand washes the other" or "I'll watch your back and you watch mine" working in a proper manner. These are true good people and true good friends that one can count on if ever one is in need :)

As others here have already stated, people that don't follow these well known and commonly upheld un-written rules, are probably not worth the hassle of dealing with them;)
 
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