Thanks for the additional info folks, but I'm pretty settled on the Sturdy Safe. It's been a very worthwhile study as I've researched these Gun "Safes"... I won't refer to them any further as a Safe, but will instead, call them what most of them actually are; Residential Security Containers (RSC's) and are rated by Underwriters Laboratories (UL)
as RSC's. In order to get the the UL-RSC burglary rating, essentially, the container must withstand break in attempts with common hand tools for at least 5 minutes. Don't confuse a UL-RSC burglary rating with a UL fire rating! The UL fire rating is a whole other kind of animal! There is a BIG difference between an actual "safe" and what most companies market as "Gun Safes" (that are actually RSC's).
I'd like to throw out a few things I've learned for others who might benefit.
Most "low end" RSC's sold by MANY companies ARE made in China, from Chinese steel which is 35% softer than American steel. These China-made RSC's are "formed" in China and assembled and "finished" in the US and some companies will sell them as "American made". Cannon for example, makes a few of their high-end, most expensive models in America for example (from the ground up), but most of their mid to low end RSC's are "created" in China and are the exact same Chinese product that is sold by other, notable RSC companies (Winchester, Bighorn, Rhino, Sentry, Browning etc.). Some have their RSC's "created" in Mexico as well. They all buy the same exact Chinese/Mexico steel "container" built to different specs so far as number of locking bolts, locks used, etc. but are essentially the same products from China/Mexico. If you are looking for a truly American made RSC (American steel and locks etc.), you had better do your homework no matter which company you are considering (with just a few exceptions as far as I have learned).
RSC Construction; How thick is the steel used on the entire shell of the RSC? The door? Many, MANY RSC's advertise 12ga., 11ga. or 10ga. steel as the outer shell steel, with any number of thicknesses used on the door (3/16, 5/16, 1/4 etc.). The pointed end of a fire ax will puncture 12ga. with relative ease, and 11, or 10 is stronger, but minimally so. Consider that a "true safe" measures the steel thickness in inches, not in gage...
in INCHES of steel. Some of these RSC's are created from individual plates of 12ga. steel that are then welded together to form the box... sometimes they are "stitch" welded together rather than continuously welded... stitch is inferior. Stitch AND continuous welds are both inferior to a single piece of (12ga.) steel that is "folded" and bent to form a "box" which contain as few welds as possible (break-bent). If you were actually buying a
real safe, made from 2-inch, 4-inch or thicker steel, it would obviously be made from separate plates and welded together (but we're not talking "real safes" here). In a 12ga. RSC, it's welded, and then the welds are ground smooth for appearance, creating a much less secure weld.
Doors, hinges, locking bolts and the locking mechanisms; The thicker the steel on the outer surface the better. Be careful here because many companies will tell you the total thickness of the door itself, without describing the actual thickness of the steel used.
From what I have read about hinges,
external hinges are the way to go. Internal hinges don't allow a full swing open for most doors that have them. If you swing an internally hinged door open TOO HARD, it can cause issues with the hinge and the doors ability to seal tight. External hinges have a couple of benefits; They allow the door to open fully, they are "serviceable doors" (can be removed when open for servicing or just to reduce weight when moving the beast around), and they may draw a criminals attention as a possible point of attack (which is a waste of his time if the door has bolts on the hinge side of the door... and most RSC's DO have locking bolts on the hinge side as well as the opposite side). A door with bolts on the hinge side will keep the door locked onto the RSC even if you were to saw off the external hinges.
Locking mechanisms in these RSC's can be very complicated and quite intricate... many of them have locking bolts in any number and possible configuration... 6 locking bolts, or 15 locking bolts or even 28 locking bolts that are advertised as being on both sides AND the top and bottom of the door (or only on the sides). More bolts sounds good in theory, but it isn't necessarily so. Some of the very best ACTUAL SAFES in the world have no more than 6 locking bolts which are on the sides of the door (none on top and bottom). The design of the bolts and how well they are supported by the door itself is more important than the number of bolts that exist. Some locking mechanisms (the gears/clutches inside the door that move all of these locking bolts when you spin that big five spoke wheel) can be complicated and quite intricate. Some can also be quite "delicate" to accidental damage. Many are designed to foil a burglar who tries to forcefully turn the wheel to open the door by sheering off internal pins or by disengaging a clutch. If your little 3 year old girl tries to play pirate and spins the "captains" wheel with much force, she may sheer a pin or clutch and now you will need a locksmith to get it open. I've read many forum comments where this sort of problem happened to quite a few people (a rifle sling got closed in the bottom of the door and the door was forced closed on it. When the time came to open the safe, excessive force was necessary to turn the wheel and the pins inside the mechanism sheered off, necessitating a locksmith). Some mechanisms are better than others in this regard so do your homework.
Locks (combination/electronic); There are basically a couple of common options... the ol' standard round, mechanical combination type or the electronic, keypad type. After what I've read, I personally wouldn't buy a safe with ANYTHING other than an ol' fashioned, round, mechanical combo dial you spin. I don't expect to need quick access to what's inside the safe (house gun's in my pocket
). Big, big problems noted with electronic keypads. Keep in mind that all locks are not the same quality either (combo or keypad) and each may or may not carry a UL rating and may or may NOT be an American made lock. Many RSC companies will only warranty the Lock for one year, even though they may have a life-time on the rest of the safe... check before you buy.
Fire"proofing"; First, this is a misnomer... no RSC is fire "proof"... actually, most REAL safes are not fire "proof". Most of the RSC's I investigated DID have some sort of fire resistance built in, but fire rating these things is like trying to heard cats
... there are few if any standards at all. IIRC, the UL does NOT fire-rate RSC's... they DO rate
real safes, but not RSC's because RSC's just aren't up to their minimal fire test criteria (other independent fire-rating companies DO test these RSC's but beware! They are being paid by the company to test the product in the way that the company asks them to test). IMO, an RSC with some/any sort of fire resistant material IS better than the same RSC without, but it's a crap-shoot.
The problem with trying to protect the contents of an RSC during a fire gets complicated because these are NOT safes, they are RSC's. Most makers of an RSC use a thick(er) steel on the outside, some fire resistant material (sheet rock) attached to it, and then perhaps even another interior sheet of steel inside that (thick exterior steel with sheet rock "sandwiched" between it and a thinner interior steel). The thicker the exterior steel, the better it will heat up and transfer the heat to the inside of the safe.... this is an inherent problem when it comes to "fireproofing" an RSC. They try to make them thick to protect against a burglar, but then they try to protect them from fire and the two goals are contrary to one another. For example and in contrast, a REAL SAFE that really DOES have a good UL-fire rating is made of a thinner steel on the outer shell, with INCHES of fire resistant material sandwiched between it, and the VERY (inches) thick steel inner liner. It's like a thick steel SAFE, surrounded by fire-brick, then covered by a thin outer-shell of thin steel. Thinner steel on the outside will "collect" less heat to transfer to the inner compartment. RSC's are just the opposite, so NO RSC is really going to be nearly as effective as a "real fire safe". If you want a REALLY good, UL-fire rated gun SAFE, buy one from Brown and expect to spend from $10 to $15 THOUSAND or more for a "smallish" one. If you want more details about fire "proof" RSC's let me know... I spent a lot of time at the UL website.
Let's see... China vs. American, general construction and steel thickness, doors, locking bolts and mechanisms, locks, and fire"proofing"... what am I forgetting? Oh, warranties and why I am going with a Sturdy Safe.
Warranty; Many company warranty their RSC's for a lifetime, but don't cover shipping if you need to send it back... Shipping an 800 pound safe is expensive!. The warranty might not cover a locksmith if little Sally decides to turn the wheel HARD-a-starboard and shears a pin. Might not have a lifetime on the lock etc. Read the warranty VERY carefully. Even Cannon (who's warranty is touted) has some fine print in there.
The Sturdy Safe
- American made (100%... steel, locks, you name it).
- 7ga. steel outer liner (roll, break bent).
- 5/16 plate door.
- External hinges.
- Sargent And Greenleaf Premium Grade Group II Combination Lock (UL and American made).
- 2 relockers.
- Heat expanding door seal with fireproof boiler gasket (actually a fire proof gasket... like the seal on a wood stove).
- Fire "proofing" consists of 3 "of 2300° Ceramic Wool & 1000° High Temp Glass sandwiched between outer (7ga.) and inner (14ga.) steel (around the entire container, not just in the sides or just the top... check this if you are looking at others!).
- A "simple" locking mechanism that isn't susceptible to over-pressure on the handle (playing pirate).
- Supported locking bolts.
- Lifetime warranty and against fire (see fine print!).
- 850lbs. (weight CAN be a good indicator of steel used).
For the price (just over $2000 delivered), I can't find a better RSC.
I'm sure I've left out some important bits, so if you have questions, hit me up. Always glad to share.
I'd advise anyone who's looking for a "gun safe" to look at the Brown Safe Co. website first to see what a REAL, fire"proof" gun
SAFE really is (for $13 thousand) and then work your way down from there to a more affordable, RSC.
To add; The criteria for a "gun safe" for me, was to have some fire protection, very good protection from the average "snatch and grab" type burglary and at a price point (delivered) of around $2500, more or less.
I'd love to have a Brown, but that would be more expensive and valuable than all the stuff I'll put in the safe... and then I'd need another larger Brown safe to secure the smaller Brown safe... and then another.... could get expensive eh?
