Gunting techniques

B

Brother Methias

Joined
Aug 16, 2000
Messages
48
Ok i have a gunting now and it does seem to be quite well made but how to use it as a blunt weapon is not obvious to me. I assume the large hump on the blade is for pressure points, but what else are you supposed to do with it- use the bottom like a pommel?

Yes i'm too cheap to spend 95$ on a series of videos.
 
Horn or "large hump" as you call it has several uses from poin striking to finger locks. And yes handle can be used as a pommel or yawara.
Sorry for rain on your parade but IMHO it's impossible to master use of Gunting either open or closed without attending master classes and serious training. Even those videos are only for informational purposes only. One can't learn how to swim only by reading book or watching video about it.
 
Originally posted by Brother Methias
Ok i have a gunting now and it does seem to be quite well made but how to use it as a blunt weapon is not obvious to me. I assume the large hump on the blade is for pressure points, but what else are you supposed to do with it-use the bottom like a pommel?

Yes i'm too cheap to spend 95$ on a series of videos.
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I think your last statement is the problem. Do you expect the knife itself to be magical and once someone tells you a few things, you will be able to use the knife well enough to save your life?

That's alot to expect, don't you think?

You're too cheap to spend $95.00 on some information that you can keep, ideally used as a "Refresher Course" after you take a couple of seminars on the use of the knife...how much is your life worth?

There is nothing magical about any knife, including the Gunting, it is what you know that makes the magic [effectiveness], you see? I can take my Benelli Super 90 Shotgun and and I can take someone who has never fired a weapon and I can tell them how to do it.

And they will perform miserably. That's the problem.
 
Sorry u couldn't be any help, don.

Any system that requires a 95$ set of videos and a 300$ set of lessons to learn is a sham. Self defense weapon systems should be simple, not "oh so complicated you need to spend 400 extra dollars to learn how to use..."

Guess i'll stick with pepper spray, and hope for concealed carry someday in chicago, just after the apocalypse...
 
Years ago I purchased a Ruger SP101 for around $300; however, I spent more than $600 in training and ammunition. Was the subsequent money spent on training and ammunition a sham? I don’t think so. I recently spent $200 on a Gunting set (knife and trainer), and I will probably wind up spending twice that on its use through “information” and seminar training. No Bro. Mathias, it’s not a sham. A sham is when a shyster lawyer hooks you up with a doctor friend of his in order to diagnose you with something that you don’t have, in order to trick the insurance company into paying out lots of lucre. A sham is when some sphincter calls lonely, senescent folks to bilk them out of their life savings.

Instructor assisted practice is possibly the shortest route to competence. It’s been said that with an infinite number of chimpanzees infinitely typing away, one will eventually and randomly reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Yeah, one could randomly work on learning how to use a knife for self defense, but an instructor saves you so much time. You must remember that mankind is inherently born tabula rasa (a blank slate); everything we need to survive must be learned; for example, it’s like learning to read before we can read the food package labels at the grocery store. Innovation only comes after knowledge; a man (or woman) can’t build a rocket until after he (or she) has learned the necessary mathematics, chemistry and physics to do so. I used to think that I could make a fist and hit someone without instruction; but those same limp arm punches I used to throw have long since become bone jarring impacts after I’d worked with a boxing coach on how to throw them effectively with my bodyweight. Bram Frank did a tremendous job designing the Gunting knife, putting in literally hundreds, maybe thousands of hours designing it; but it’s just another knife unless you let him teach you its design principles, and how to use it effectively. Ya see?
 
Originally posted by Brother Methias
Sorry u couldn't be any help, don.
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I don't know who you are talking about, to me or someone I would theoretically teach how to shoot a shotgun. I assume you are referring to the latter and not the former.

Combat Shotgun is not easy. There are alot of myths about the shotgun, it is not merely a weapon that is pointed. It has to be aimed, the room-broom/street-cleaner stuff is the stuff of Politicians and Lore. It takes skill and it takes alot of time with one to learn how to rapid fire the equivalent in recoil of an Elephant Rifle.

Any system that requires a 95$ set of videos and a 300$ set of lessons to learn is a sham. Self defense weapon systems should be simple, not "oh so complicated you need to spend 400 extra dollars to learn how to use..."
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With all due respect, what you just wrote is utter nonsense. In many ways...

SO, if you get your concealed carry permit, obtaining instruction at say, Lethal Force Institute [Ayoob] would be a sham?

It's an investment for your own safety and security. You have convinced yourself that it is a rip-off and that it is useless. I actually feel that way about the VAST MAJORITY of Martial Arts where you tie a belt around a Gi. Been there and done that. Sometimes, people don't spend a couple/few hundred dollars, they spend thousands, in some cases, TENS of thousands of dollars and they have no real-deal Self-Protection Skills. They can kick high, they can kick fast, they have a nice belt tree, lots of certificates and trophies. When the rubber meets the road, it means not a thing.

I understand your cynicism insofar I have experienced it as well. But...I do not allow my cynicism to override my ability to reason, my common sense.

If you have made up your mind, so be it.

Guess i'll stick with pepper spray, and hope for concealed carry someday in chicago, just after the apocalypse...
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That might be best.
 
I'm sorry that you feel that training package with the Gunting itself is a sham in this case..that the knife and its ways should be self evident..

I guess a gun should be as well..except I had to purchase training to understand how to use it properly..and damn if I'm not still paying for more lessons...

I once thought a single class would teach me all I needed to know about martial arts..I'm a slow learner because over 35 years later I'm still just learning how to do it..It was not self evident..and I have thousands of books tapes and tens of thousands of hours of training in classes & seminars..

In the past people paid lots of money and time to be taught the art of weapons..
Guilds came into being to teach the art of tools and trade..
all because its not self evident and learning from those that know shorten the learning curve..

SPYDERCO was kind enough to let me design a knife, training program and Impact tool based on very basic gross motor skills..and have allowed me to teach it to others..

A scam would be a company that made a tool one couldn't use without training, didn't offer the training or had bogus training..
SPYDERCO..made sure there was training available..they even started MBC.. For those that wanted to have me and the training in their own homes..24/7 I had Video Quest make instructional tapes...

This is a watershed event in the world of knives..a new way to use and view the edged tool...thats according to the man himself Sal Glesser..
Massad Ayoob calls it a historic event changing how all knives are viewed and used...
The Law Enforcement community calls it the best les than lethal tool & program ever designed...

again.. I'm sorry if you feel that giving knowledge is a scam...
and it costs you $100 for the tapes..

Its cheaper than hiring me thats for sure...

I'm not cheap and my time is booked by the LEO, Military and security world who think the tapes, programs, and tools are the best thing since sliced bread..They make the aparticipants take 5 day courses to
understand the use of the tool and think its great..

I wish you the best in learning by yourself...

thank you to those that understand what went into the design and the thinking thereof..
Don, Bildrac, Dmitry et al..thanks for your support!

PS:
And yes the ramp is used for pressure points, restraint holds, throws, "guntings" ah the namesake...and of course kinetic openings..
Did you know that the design makes the upper ramp and lower ramp perform different functions withih the same conceptual motion?
The upper ramp is for "come -a-longs"..the lower ramp is for "take-down"...
but that needs to be learned from an instructor and experience
 
Maybe Methias is thinking "So what about the ramp and handle, it's a knife, take the sharp and pointy bit and insert into bad guy", something I don't disagree with. I figure that's the point of carrying an edged weapon in the first place. It's been covered many, many times before that for a civilian to draw a knife, he may as well cut the BG to ribbons. Draw a lethal weapon, use it with lethal intent. I own a Gunting, just wanted to see what the fuss was all about. It's a great knife, and I can appreciate the work that went into the design, but I'd never use it as intended. Nerve hits and destructions aren't part of my empty hand training, and if I'm going to fill a live hand with a weapon, its gonna have an edge or give me a reach advantage, two things a closed Gunting does not provide. Good knife, especially for those who must show restraint when physically threatened, but maybe not a blade for the masses.
 
I guess when i bought it i expected that just grabbing the knife in the closed position would produce an obvious use for the layman, as of now i do not have any confidence in my ability to use the "hump" as an impact weapon or a pressure point applicator. My hand seems too big to fit behind the hump and too small to stick the hump between my first and second fingers in a closed fist. You guys have certainly convinced me not to buy the videos, doesn't sound like i'd learn how to use the techniques from them with any proficiency.

Unfortunately I live in chicago where it is illegal to carry a knife with a blade > 2' anyway, and if i was going to carry an illegal weapon for self defense (in addition to my asp defender spray) it would definitely be a blackjack or slapper instead.
 
Brother,
Your reasoning doesn't make any sence! How can you purchase something,have no training,or instuctions an expect anything?? That's like saying I bought these boxing gloves ,put them on, got in the ring & got my butt kicked,"they didn't work"!First of all, the Gunting isn't gripped with the ramp between the fingers(the tape would explain)! If you choose to grip your way,snap your wrist & use the end(the pointy part)otherwise known as the butt end as a strike!Forgive my sarcasm, I just can't understand YOUR reasoning! Sell it & good luck with whatever you get ,you are going to need it,with your ideas,someone is going to hand you your head!
jim
 
When it comes to a lack of logic, people never cease to amaze me, I'm used to it. After almost four years on various Internet Forums, I have come to expect it.

But when you combine a lack of logic with incredibly high expectations, and then you add the fact that someone will come on and say these things...THAT always leaves me scratching my head.

In other words, I can understand someone BEING illogical, I never can understand someone more or less saying, "I want to stay illogical."

I guess I could say a whole lot more, but it would fall on deaf ears and why waste the time?
 
Brother, after some prison trained thug shoves your O/C into a place where it was not designed to go, a 100 bucks will seem cheap. If you are not willing to properly train with a survival tool, you shouldn't be carrying the thing. If your life is worth a $20 can of O/C with no training, then thats your decision. As for the comments about no use for an edged tool that you don't deploy for lethal force, I would ask how would you handle the large, obnoxious, unarmed, violent drunk?-stab him? I originally viewed the Gunting as a gimmick, until I got one, and drone, and tapes. It is now one of my favored tools when I have to go into situations in which I may have to deal with intoxicated idiots who may be violent, or working executive protection and bodyguard details where I may have to "move" someone without stabbing or shooting them. I have been in far more lethal force encounters than 99% of the population ever will, and I can honestly say that the violent confrontations that I have been in that involved less than lethal force out number those lethal ones 500 to one. This is where the Gunting works well. I can cut fishing line, have a impact tool, and a lethal force weapon in one package that I can legally carry in just about any jurisdiction in the country. Heck, I can carry my red handled drone in places where knives a totally banned, and still have a great impact tool to use where O/C may not be practical-like a crowded restaurant, or even Disneyland. End of rant
 
As for the comments about no use for an edged tool that you don't deploy for lethal force, I would ask how would you handle the large, obnoxious, unarmed, violent drunk?-stab him?
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Depends on what kind of day I was having. If not, I just might be able to use the empty hand training I wasted all those hundred dollar bills on.
 
I think the application of the gunting is entirely obvious. But there's a difference between knowing HOW something should be used, and actually using it correctly.

Training helps with the execution, and can provide new insights on applications. In a life or death situation you would want to be able to properly execute what needs to be done. You may immediately KNOW what needs to be done, but there's no guarantee, or even probability, that you'll be able to do it correctly without proper training. That requires a disciplined approach to execution.

Sure, I may know that it might be a good and desirable thing to punch this or that badguy in the throat, but getting it done is another matter entirely.
 
honestly, i was gonna argue the fact that the gunting was a 'historic event' and its the best thing since canned beans, and is better than a 12 gauge - but instead, after all the threads about it, if ya want one, good for you, you are armed w/the greatest fighting knife ever designed in the world - make ya happy?? it is the best designed knife ever concieved, and will never open in your pocket, etc - and i would rather have one than a glock 40 and 10 yrs of training by , massad ayoob, or clint smith, or,,,,,?? carry it w/confidence, as it is the best thing around - by all means if ya got one ya have no reason to fear any man, w/enuff training, heck i would rather have a gunting than any firearm ya can imagine........

so ya want one?? i have a deal for ya- a LNIB gunting (fresh back from spyderco fixing the pivot pin, which would not rtemain tight) a skunkworks sheath to carry iot in ( because it opens in your pocket) and a training video(best one ever made, 'no fear' of a gun after ya watch it) for sale for $150 , please email me for info


after carrying one a while, i dont see WTF all the ruckus is about - its just a knife, and a little one at that

with all ya defenders of the gunting, i assume i will have no prob selling mine

nothing against sal or anyothers mentioned, but after all the discussion of the gunting, i honestly dont see what all the fuss is about

i have several knives i would prefer to the gunting for CQB, ie the crawford kasper ti fighter, the BM 975SBT, Emerson commander, BM 800 series, spyderco lum tanto, matriarch, starmate, etc

but i guess my opinion does not matter, all i am is an investigator fopr the tx dept of CJ, and make a felony arrest every now and then....

imho the whole 'gunting' mystique is unwarranted, give me a REKAT SIFU any day lol........

and now, though i would like to say more, that is my last spiel on the gunting, RIP


sifu
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BM,
I think your problem stays on the trial to replace skills with equipment. Something like - just buy cool looking knife and it will work in your place! Must say you are not alone in this tendency (quite dangerous as itself in my opinion). A lot of people are honestly convinced that it is enough to shell out certain amount of money for "wonder equipment" and it will work in their place.

No one equipment can do it, sorry...

As to GUNTING - it also can't defend you as itself. Bram has designed this knife as the part of his defensive system, to support it but no way to replace. If you are accepting this system and mastering it continuously - it will work for you. Differently it will work for you as much as each other knife or even less due to unusual shape and also unusual blade ratio to weight and dimensions.

So much better solution would be to learn Bram's defensive system first and then to decide - will GUNTING work for you or not. No wonders - it's just tool and as each tool requires to be applied as it was intended.
 
Tripe has two definitions, one, it is the rubbery stomach lining of ruminant animals, and two, nonsensical writing. I suggest that you reread what ‘cha wrote there SIFU1A, it’s barely more than sarcasm in lieu of a rational or well reasoned response, with a couple of fallacies thrown in for spice, like your attempts to use the ole’ appeal to authority—basically just a psitticism, a parroted thought, more commonly referred to as “tripe”. What was the purpose of your response? No one argued that the Gunting was some kind of talismanic instrument that’ll ward off evil doers. Just try to understand that the philosophy behind it isn’t a “sham”; that lots of thought, many years in fact, went into its design! And it works quite well within the perimeters of that design! Ya see, ya gotta put in the time and effort to learn the system and philosophy behind it to use the Gunting effectively, it’s as simple as that.

I like the Bowie knife, quite a bit in fact, I own a Randall Model 1-7, a USMC Kabar, and a Western Bowie; I also think it’s one o’the best fightin’ knives ever designed; but it’s virtually useless to me since I just don’t know how ta use one, let alone carry’n one cause of politically correct type reasons, seein’ as how I gotta kowtow to those that know better ‘bout what’s in my best interest. It ain’t likely I’m gonna be granted a concealed carry weapons permit by the benevolent government of PRK anytime soon, I’m barely allowed to carry a foldin’ knife—let alone a “god-f’rbid ‘fixed blade knife;’” I happen to like the Spyderco Gunting knife designed by Bram Frank, it fits in very well with the martial system I chose to learn for self defense, and I also carry it every day and use it for all kinds of stuff. I even used it to save my dog from hangin’ h’self on a lead. Ya don’t like the design? So be it, carry your beloved “fill-in-the-blank” make and model if it makes you feel secure, happy, and content. Yes the Gunting’s got its detractors; hell, every single new fangled innovation, design, painting, sculpture, building, fill-in-the-blank-et-cetera-ad-infinitum, has its vehement, incompetence driven detractors; if’n ya tried it and don’t like it, just don’t carry one, it’s that simple; but I do ask that you remember that you are a member of the species homo sapiens sapiens, a species whom relies on its unique capacity to reason in order to survive, and try to refrain from marking your territory like an irrational, instinct driven canine with your misplaced sarcasm.
 
hey hey hey who let the dogs out lol? honestly it did come out more sarcastic than i meant, and i dont hink its a bad knife, just one ya really need personal instruction in, much more so than other knives imho - if i was gonna get training on a knife, i think i would rarhet get some that wasnt so dedicated to one particular type/design - and i agree its an ok knife, and i'm sure bram put a lot of time into the design,but,imho it needs a detent/etc to help it not open up in your pocket, which mine will do, after all it is a pocket knife, right?and i am just not sure i buy into the idea of using a knife for a yawara stick - if ya pull a yawara stick, its not considered a deadly weapon, but a knife? yes it is, in these parts anyway, and that opens up a whole new ballgame..but again, no one can dispute quality/etc, nor can ya on any spydie imho

anyway that is my 'constructive criticism' on the gunt, not a bad knife, just mis understood i think

and again no insult to sal/bram/guntying fans, and apologize for sounding so critical, sometimes what ya think and what ya write can be 2 seperate things, no offense meant to anyone......

and i dont think bram will mind, he is very capable of defending his design, as i have seen over and over here, certainly nothing personal meant...

sifu
 
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