Gurkha House - A Final? Word

C

Craig Gottlieb

Joined
Mar 8, 1999
Messages
1,760
Couldn't find the "I told you so" thread, so I thought I'd post my closing remarks on the Cliff Stamp Khukuri Faceoff. Cliff just sent me back the khukuri I sent him for testing. I was actually surprised by one thing: The knife was still fully functional and, with some opoxy to fasten the buttcap (for safety), will remain functional. For those of you who are interested in the actual wear my khukuri suffered as a result of the test, I will post close-up photos of the tester knife on my website (www.cystern.com/khukuri) in about a week. I've been so busy shaking out the bugs on the new e-commerce capabilities on my site that I haven't had any time to add content lately.

Bill passed on a suggestion to me - that I modify my guarantee. Specifically, he said that a lifetime guarantee, in his opinion, was not appropriate for my khukuris, and that I might warn customers not to use them for heavy work. Although I appreciate and fully respect his opinion, I'm going to stand firm on my guarantee and continue to offer the life time guarantee. The reason is simple: although my knife suffered what I would term serious cosmetic damage in the tests, the knife (as the photos will show) still functions perfectly and can be relied on to operate in the most severe applications. Actually, it is because of this forum that I adopted the lifetime guarantee.

A new shipment is due in any day now, and it will contain thicker bladed khukuris with longer handles. When I get to it, I'm going to send one to Cliff for a re-test. It is my hope that sending a knife more closely resembling the size and thickness of an Ang Khola will improve my line's performance review.
 
Craig, here's what I said verbatimm in the "I told you so" thread.

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Craig, first of all let me tell you that I am very encouraged by your latest post. It shows that you have accepted the facts and are trying your best.

Remember, I am not your enemy nor am I your competitor. And if you are willing to listen to me you can learn something which can only benefit you and if you are willing to take my advice I can actually help you.

Why am I willing to do this? First, because of my Buddhist belief it is my duty. Second, because every khukuri you sell is of some small benefit to the poor people of Nepal -- and there are many there who can certainly use this help. If I help you I help the people of Nepal plus it helps me keep the karma cops away from my door.

The first thing I would encourage you to do is to read everything that has been written in the HI forums. There is a lot of information here which will help you understand your khukuris, the people that produce them -- the kamis, the country from which they come -- Nepal, and the people who made them world famous -- the Gurkhas. The more you know the better off you will be.

You asked about price. If you are selling your khukuris for about 1/3 the price of the HI khukuris you are in the right ball park. Your khukuris are better than the Indian junkers by far but they are not as good as the HI khukuris. How do I know this? Because I've seen thousands of khukuris just like the ones you are selling. Read the old thread, "Am I qualifed to host this forum?" and you'll understand.

Another thing I'd advise you to do is not oversell your khukuris. Don't say they will do things they won't. You have enough test results now to give you a good indication of their limitations. Stay within these limitations and for two reasons. If you say your khukuris will do something and they won't word spreads fast and your credibility will suffer. And, more importantly, if someone believes your claims and then finds himself in harm's way and needs your khukuri to save his life and your khukuri does not perform as you said it would you may have placed someone in a very dangerous position because you oversold.

It might be a good time to rethink your guarantee. Don't be ashamed to offer a lesser guarantee than the HI guarantee. You are selling your knives for 1/3 the price so it makes sense to me that you don't need to offer an unconditional guarantee. You might consider putting a qualifier in your guarantee which says something like, "These khukuris are not meant to be used as crowbars or for chopping and punching holes in steel."
I don't believe you will get any argument from anybody in this regard and I don't think a lesser guarantee will hurt your sales one bit.

The biggest problem you are going to have is your quality assurance. The Khukuri House is not going to QC your khukuris nor will any other dealer. They are going to send you what they buy without even taking the khukuris out of the scabbard. This is what you face when you buy from dealers in Kathmandu. I think your only solution is to QC your khukuris yourself and be wary of visual inspection only. The khukuri might appear wonderful but when you put it to the test it could fail. Remember, beauty is only skin deep. At a minimum I'd suggest this. Put a file and stone to each blade you intend to send to a customer and see what that tells you. Second, get an oak log and give it a few whacks, full strength, and then inspect the blade and see what it tells you. Third, make yourself a rig to test for lateral strength. Stick the blade into your rig and give it a lateral pull of 75 or a 100 pounds and see what happens. If your khukuri passes all these tests then send it away as an inspected and passed khukuri. If it fails you will have to make a decision as to what to do with it. Due to shipping costs it is really not worthwhile to return it to Nepal and there's a chance they will tell you the khukuri was never received anyway. You might consider selling it as a blem or give it to a valued customer.

I hope this information will help you. If I can be of further assistance let me know.

Uncle Bill
 
Bill, thanks for the encouraging words, and to Ghost Six also. I also want to do my part to help Nepal, even though my commerce will only make a tiny dent there. And bill, the bone handled knife is really a beauty. Although the engraving is the same as the engraving on my Kothimora and Deluxe Presentation, the handle is a real piece of work. I'm going to try to get some of those on my next shipment, not only for my customers, but for me - I want one for my personal collection.
 
I like to see everyone getting along. Craig, get one of the HI khukuries from Bill to use as a comparison piece for your khukuries. This may help. Besides, it's fun to have more of everything.

By the way the handle on your's has not completely failed as of this writting, just a piece came off it, but I have not been chopping much since the last post, due to running out of fire wood. Is the one that you will send me in replacement thicker than this one? This is what you stated a few weeks ago. Are they supposed to be like the Ang Khola's?

In fact I have not had a chance to try out the new 18 inch AK yet.
 
Craig, we don't offer bone handles. I think the khukuri you have in mind is the spotted deer horn with silver pommel and bolster.

This little deer is legally hunted by government permit only and the only place we can get the horn (except from poachers which we refuse to do) is from a professional hunter from Taplejung who is issued three or four permits per year.

The knife that's pictured is one of a run of four. We can get only about eight or ten of these deer horn models per year and stay within the law in Nepal.

I have a couple left with no engraving on the blade if you are interested in one for your personal collection. That's probably all I'll have for another six or eight months.

Uncle Bill
 
Craig,Cobalt has a good idea,you need a yardstick.Simpering elymosenary gibberish aside,what most people are looking for is value for money.That is your business bottom line.

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Cobalt and Bill, I have already had an HI Ang Khola (it was sent to me by a member of this forum who has purchased quite a few of my knives). I examined it and used it for a few days, and then returned it to its owner. And Cobalt, yes, the one I am going to send you has a thicker handle and blade. Should be much sturdier than the Service Number One. As for handles, I seem to remember Bill saying that an old Nepalese proverb said something to the effect that handles are not meant to last forever, only blades. In any case, you deserve a new knife, Cobalt. Go ahead and send the old one back and when the new ones come in, I'll send one out.

Bill, as for the deer antler khukuri, I think I'll pass for now. I've asked my supplier to create a similar handle for one of my engraved blades, so we'll wait and see what he delivers.

And Ghost Six, you are right that people want value for money. That's why I am so enthusiastic about my khukuris. Although equality may respectfully be debated here (HI Ang Khola vs GH Bjopure), that's the reason I priced my khukuris so affordably - because I want people to get the best bang for their buck.

Semper Fidelis.

 
Craig, be wary of the horn handle unless you are assured the horn comes from a professional hunter. Otherwise you're probably dealing in poached deer.

Uncle Bill
 
Craig,why don`t you go for a different nich in the market,one that Bill hasn`t sewn up? Forget about beating the AK.Go for the fancy,engraved,silver mounted market.Keep the inexpensive users,go for the wall hangers as well.More khukries are good for all. I am still going to buy mine from Bill but,I suspect that there is an untapped market out there.
30 yrs.ago,we had a hard charger who was using an export Co.for cover.He started showing a profit.This brought unwanted attention,and interfered with his mission.He was reassigned,without predjuce.The point of this is that Americans seem to have a need to succede,even when they are not supposed to.Or to spend the time to do this.You will be fine,Craig.The fact that you came here,shows a certain wisdom.
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[This message has been edited by ghostsix (edited 21 April 1999).]

[This message has been edited by ghostsix (edited 21 April 1999).]
 
Ghost Six: I didn't completely understand the part about the hard charger, but I do get the point you are making, and it is a wise one. As for the "wall hanging" market, I know my knives are better than that. The reason I know this is that Cliff Stamp's tester (a Service Number One) came back blemished, but otherwise fully functional. When I can, I'll post pictures of it on my website. The other reason I know that my market is not the "wall hanger" market is because many of my growing number of distributors (many of whom make knives for a living) have told me that my knives are great bargains for the price. They even complain that I'm selling them for too little. One of my newest distributors has indicated that he's going to stop carrying the HIs in favor of my line, because the difference between the Service Number One (which is the only one he's seen so far) and a HI Ang Khola isn't worth the extra price. As bill pointed out, though, there is room for both of us, as both of our businesses help Nepal. My wife, a child labor expert who works for the Department of Labor, agrees with me on this topic. You are absolutely right, though, Ghost Six, that my knives are more affordable for the "wall hanging" crowd. I'll be happy to sell you a Bjopure or a WWII for your collection at a deep discount if you ever want it (not that you are a wall-hanger).

As for Bill's advice about the poaching in Nepal, I think he's right on. I will buy cautiously, very cautiously. Poachers should be shot and then shot again. And I think this forum is great. I've taken Bill's comments to heart about reading and learning here.
 
I agree with both Craig and Ghostsix in everything said except I don't think I have any distributors. I supply a few khukuris to Stoddard's because they are an old and very classy store and I was able to supply a few knives for Sid Post last year but for the last six months I haven't been able to keep myself supplied. That's why we are trying to get shop 2 going.

Uncle Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Martino (edited 21 April 1999).]
 
I meant no offense.If you were to post a link,I would like to see your knives.I`m quite sure that the other members would visit your site as well. The hard charger refered to was a spook with a business degree.He forgot his real business.

[This message has been edited by ghostsix (edited 21 April 1999).]
 
Craig, you said:

"(___________) should be shot, and then shot again."

A sentimental gentleman like you is a pleasure to share views with. My sentiments too! Very Big Grin
 
shshshshshshsh,
Be vewy, vewy quiet,
we are hunting Elmers.

I was watching a show about elephant poachers in Africa and it was great to see the african rangers blast them while they sleep with their M1A's. I wonder if the rangers then took the gold fillings from the poacher's mouths?
 
Craig :

although my knife suffered what I would term serious cosmetic damage in the tests, the knife (as the photos will show) still functions perfectly and can be relied on to operate in the most severe applications
Click to expand...

I don't usually get into debates with other people about the results of tests, mine or otherwise. Different people want different things. Generally, I just state what I did and what happened - its up the the reader to make his own conclusions.

While it was true that when the khukuri took a perm. bend in both the blade and the tip I was able to straighten it out, any perm. fold will leave a weakness in the steel. I would be hesistant to call this cosmetic damage as each time this happens the steel gets weaker and eventually it will cause a fracture.

This is very easy to see. Take a piece of steel stock and clamp it in a vice. Put a bar on it and bend it back and forth. Pretty quickly you will get it to the point that you can do this without having the bar on it anymore.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, you and I and most people who understand knives know the reason the blade bent was simply because the steel was too soft. This is due to poor steel, poor hardening techniques, or a combination of the two. Further, if you bent the blade 8 degrees you could have just as easily bent it 80 degrees by keeping the same torque on the blade. The reason the bend was limited to 8 degrees is because you quit applying pressure when you saw the knife take a bend and saw no reason to inflict further damage on the knife. Right or wrong?

And, we further know that when you put a permanent bend in steel and rebend it back to original again you have done serious damage to the blade even though this may not be obvious to the naked eye.

I can understand and admire Craig attempting to defend the integrity of the khukuri but I think he and especially those who might be forced to depend on such a knife in an emergency situation would be better served if he reread and followed the advice I gave him on overselling.

Uncle Bill
 
Bill :

The reason the bend was limited to 8 degrees is because you quit applying pressure when you saw the knife take a bend and saw no reason to inflict further damage on the knife. Right or wrong?
Click to expand...

Yes. Once a knife has taken a perm. bend it is easier to bend it more than it was to put the bend in it in the first place. The steel has been weakened by creating a fault line of sorts. Cobalt would know more about this than me as its been years since I looked at a stress/strain graph to determine yield strengths.

I had a large bowie that I used to use as a standard for tip strength tests as its toughness was at the minimum I wanted. Basically it took enough strain to bend that I knew I would never reach that point by accident. However after using it over a short period of time the tip weakened to the extent that it was too weak and I had to grind it off.

-Cliff
 
Ok, guys, first I want to say that even though the Service took a bend it did better than the other products with the exception of the HI. The way in that it failed, tells me that it has a life expectancy of one emergency, which is one more than most. This is not bad. I would trust myself to one emergency with this knife in the prying department.

The HI has much more life than that, and if only one is what I can have, then HI it is. For continued abuse the HI is it. For limited light brush work the GH will do. It will beat out Ontario and compares favorably to MD. It's just not as well done as the HI, which is the top of the barrel.

Cliff, I havent done any work with stress/strain curves in a long time, but it was my favored topic in school. My specialty is energy(BOOM!).

However, I can explain what is happening to the GH and other knives that have bent and are easier to bend afterwards, if you want to know.
 
Last time I did any stress/strain work was 1969. I put some strain gages on a model and stuck it in a wind tunnel for some tests. I'm lucky to even remember the words and I'm too old to relearn anything so save yourself, Cobalt.

Uncle Bill

 
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