H. I. - Bowie technique CD passaround

Howard Wallace

Howard Wallace

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We have 3 CDs on bowie techniques, the techniques the HI Liberty series is designed for. Two of the discs are the ones Mr. Bagwell mentioned in the YouTube clip in Steely’s L1 thread. The third is issue 5 of Modern Knives, with segments from Bagwell, Sastre, Mclemore, Kautz, and Keating. These ideas could also be helpful in generating technique ideas for other HI knives like the Cherokee Rose, trisul, ultimate fighter, etc.

If you are a regular you have read many times that you need to listen to your knife and learn from it. All the HI knives are different, even if they have the same model name. Look at the discs as sources of ideas in this context. Critically evaluate each technique for safety in light of the blade you are using. Never abandon common sense. You may wish to practice with trainers or cover edges. Please – be careful for your safety and that of others.

Steely did a preliminary evaluation of these discs. He can give us his thoughts and start the passaround.


Groundrules for the pass-around
  1. Listing priority goes to HI regulars with models adaptable to bowie techniques, HI regulars, others with HI models adaptable to bowie techniques. Listing order is at moderator discretion. Don’t be upset if someone is inserted into the list ahead of you. That is the way we are setting this up. When you post your request to be included please note the types of HI knives you will be using.
  2. Agree to post your thoughts in this thread, including type of knife used and perceptions of what ideas do and do not work well with that model.
  3. Must be in the US (Otherwise we will get heavy shipping costs, delays, and may lose discs in customs.
  4. You agree to send the disc off to the next person on the list within one week of receipt. You need to get the address of the next person on the list yourself. Use PM or e-mail if possible. The next disc in the series will be shipped to you after you pass along the one you have. When you receive a disc post here so we can keep track of who has them.
  5. No complaints if moderators rearrange the list order. Moderators may flex other rules also. Work with us.
  6. If you meet the qualifications and are interested, post in this thread to get added to the list.

Passaround list
(To be filled as participants join)

1. Steely Gunz - done
2. cul4u01 - done
3 kamagong - done
4 hk1123 - currently holding disc 1 - basics, 2 - backcut, and 3- Modern Knives
5 Scara (lower on list per request)
6 madbomber1998


Namaste.
 
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Cool....I'm interested.

You know me, I got everything, but I really want to see what knowledge I can glean from the CDs for the Trisul, Butterfly Sword, Western Style Knife, The Cherokee Rose, Suga, Tibetan Long Sword, Crow Knife, East West Knife, Stick Knife, and the Tamang! I'm in no rush.
 
This is awesome! I’m not in the USA so can’t participate but Keating is an absolute master of modern bowie fighting. A fighting bowie needs a sharpened swedge to be a true fighting bowie IMHO. A bagwell bowie with a sheath that hangs IWB from a frog is my dream grail knife.

Back cuts are awesome! Just learning to back cut will open up a huge new range of strikes for one to practice.
 
Just a thought. You can post private videos on youtube, then as the administrator share and and delete as you see fit... I dont remember if you can password protect or not or if it is just sharing the link. I do this when sharing videos of my kids with family scattered accross the states.

Very cool sounding videos BTW, although most of my HI products are used against trees and brush...
 
I’d like to enter. I don’t have any HI bowies, but I have a couple of other knives that should be suitable.

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I would like to be on the list, but put me low on it. I don't have my blades with me, and won't have them for a while, and I don't have a DVD player currently. I have two IBBBs, a Padam Suga, and a Medium Cherokee Rose, though I believe that even the kukris are adaptable to Bowie techniques.
 
I have a lot to say about these fantastic learning tools that Howard was so gracious to loan me.

Unfortunately I'm hammering this out on my phone as I wait for my wife's tire to be replaced on my way to my mother in laws (how does one manage to hit a piece of 3/8" rebar in the middle of interstate?).

The long and the short of it is these discs have a fantastic amount of quality information in them. I've tried the exercises with the Liberty knife I have. I also used an AK Bowie, a Ka-Bar 1271 Fighter, and even a stout piece of oak walking stick. It's surprisingly adaptive.

Full disclosure, I'm not a knife fighter. These videos are academic. Understanding your knife fully is a fun exercise in and of itself. I honestly believe that I got more out of the defensive exercises than the strikes.

I'll be very interested to hear what others to think once they spend a little time with the discs.

I'm also including a Cold Steel training bowie with the first disc. Mr. Keating specifically suggests not to train with a live blade. The trainer should be a good analog to warm up with. If you could pass that along with the disc, that would be great. It's super cheap, and I don't mind it getting lost. I just don't want any of us losing piggies to a live blade.

I'll write out a more detailed thought once I get back into town.
 
I just received the first disc in the passaround, Bowie Basics. It came at an opportune time as TCM has the Iron Mistress available On Demand this week. I'm going to watch the movie before the CD so as to put me in the proper frame of mind. ;)

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Obviously I haven't had any time to study it. But I wanted to give post a picture of the instruments I'm going to have on hand. The CS trainer is the one that Steely generously included in the passaround. The stick is a piece of kamagong, or Macassar ebony. Dense and heavy, it's for exercise, to help me build my hand strength back up. Being a white collar type, my grip is not as strong as it should be considering the tools I'll be working with. The Kobra is a lightweight one made by Kesar. 18" long and only 12 ounces, it's wicked fast for a khukuri. The bowie is an old Camillus collaboration with Jerry Fisk. I have a better one, but truth be told it scares me a little. Not that it matters much, I'm not going to try the exercises with steel until I am VERY practiced and comfortable doing them with the trainer.

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I'll share my thoughts once I watch the CD.
 
Though not yet a regular, I, like kamagong own that book (Paladin going out of business sale), several acceptable type blades (Laredo trainer, Natchez, an icky Frost) but no HI knives (as yet). If possible, I too would like to participate in this as well.
 
I finished watching the first CD this past weekend. This post regards my first impressions more than anything, as the video is rich in detail. Numerous viewings will be necessary in order to fully benefit from it.

The first part of the video is a seven move defensive flow. It was surprisingly familiar as the moves were very similar, if not identical, to ones I learned in Arnis many years ago. FMA practitioners will readily recognize them.

The second part was another seven move flow, though this one is offensive in nature. The first three were strikes and again familiar from my time in Arnis. Moves four and five introduced the backcut, the specialty of the bowie. The movements felt completely alien to me, and comparing myself to Keating, my technique is glaringly wanting. Much practice is in order. Moves six and seven were thrusts. Again reminiscent of Arnis moves, but I had some difficulty rotating my wrists prior to the thrusts. It would seem that years of disuse and nonpractice have robbed me of some of flexibility.

A note on the tools I used. Most of the moves, save the ones that involved the backcut, could be used with bowie, khukuri, or stick. I used none of them initially, opting instead to use the trainer that Steely donated. A safe tool when learning something new. However its utility is limited by its lightness. After I had become comfortable with the drills, I switched to the bowie. The bowie is well balanced and tremendously light for its size, weighing in at less than a pound despite an 11"+ blade. Still, the difference in weight between it and the trainer was significant and immediately noticeable. I think a bit of weight training with the heavy stick is in order.

I also tried using the Kobra. This one was made by Kesar. I haven't weighed it, but when I bought it Uncle Bill said it was 18" long and 12 ounces. It's the lightest khukuri I own. Still, using it is even more wearying than using the heavier bowie. The forward balance of the knife makes itself felt earlier during practice.

As to listening to your knife and learning from it, the bowie has already taught me its first lesson. After a couple of minutes of drills, I was reminded of the importance of a good dehorning. Crisp lines look nice, but on a knife it is important that there are no sharp areas other than the cutting edge. The rear of the guard, the part that contacts my hand needs to be radiused as it quickly began to irritate my fingers. A few minutes with the white rod of a Spyderco Sharpmaker should fix the problem.

Watching Keating deliver the backcut drove home the point that I don't have a proper fighting bowie. To perform the backcut, a bowie needs a sharpened falsed edge. None of my bowies has a false edge, they all have cosmetic swedges. I'm going to do what I can with the knives I have, but I'll need to pick up a proper fighting bowie sometime in the future.

That's all my thoughts for now. Can't wait check out the second CD.
 
hk1123 said:
Though not yet a regular, I, like kamagong own that book (Paladin going out of business sale), several acceptable type blades (Laredo trainer, Natchez, an icky Frost) but no HI knives (as yet). If possible, I too would like to participate in this as well.
Click to expand...

Welcome! I added you to the list.

kamagong said:
...
The second part was another seven move flow, though this one is offensive in nature. The first three were strikes and again familiar from my time in Arnis. Moves four and five introduced the backcut, the specialty of the bowie. The movements felt completely alien to me, and comparing myself to Keating, my technique is glaringly wanting. Much practice is in order. Moves six and seven were thrusts. Again reminiscent of Arnis moves, but I had some difficulty rotating my wrists prior to the thrusts. It would seem that years of disuse and nonpractice have robbed me of some of flexibility.
Click to expand...

Deception is part and parcel of the art. Some people think the arms akimbo and jutting elbows look odd. Certainly less than straightforward, but also less than predictable.

kamagong said:
...
A note on the tools I used. Most of the moves, save the ones that involved the backcut, could be used with bowie, khukuri, or stick. I used none of them initially, opting instead to use the trainer that Steely donated. A safe tool when learning something new. However its utility is limited by its lightness. After I had become comfortable with the drills, I switched to the bowie. The bowie is well balanced and tremendously light for its size, weighing in at less than a pound despite an 11"+ blade. Still, the difference in weight between it and the trainer was significant and immediately noticeable. I think a bit of weight training with the heavy stick is in order.
Click to expand...

Each blade has something to teach. I learned a lot from going through these with a massive Cherokee Rose. The blade has a momentum that must be guided and can't be forced. It taught me to ride the mass of the blade. Then I picked up a lighter knife and found that the lesson the Rose taught me had wondrous effect there too, although my inability to hear the whispers of the lighter knife would not let me learn the lesson from her.

kamagong said:
...
Watching Keating deliver the backcut drove home the point that I don't have a proper fighting bowie. To perform the backcut, a bowie needs a sharpened falsed edge. None of my bowies has a false edge, they all have cosmetic swedges. I'm going to do what I can with the knives I have, but I'll need to pick up a proper fighting bowie sometime in the future.
Click to expand...

The backcut motion still works with an unsharpened edge. It is no longer a cut, but becomes a point rip, like a ripping claw. It works for the tiger and the bear, so we had best not discount it.
 
Howard Wallace said:
Deception is part and parcel of the art. Some people think the arms akimbo and jutting elbows look odd. Certainly less than straightforward, but also less than predictable.
Click to expand...

I think those nuances come with practice and reflection. At this time I'm focusing mostly on not poking myself and cutting parts off.

Howard Wallace said:
Each blade has something to teach. I learned a lot from going through these with a massive Cherokee Rose. The blade has a momentum that must be guided and can't be forced. It taught me to ride the mass of the blade.
Click to expand...

Didn't your budhini have a similar feel?

Howard Wallace said:
The backcut still works with an unsharpened edge. It is no longer a cut, but becomes a ripping claw. It works for the tiger and the bear, so we had best not discount it.
Click to expand...

That may be, but I still want a bowie with a sharpened false edge. Perhaps a Laredo, maybe an L2, though I yearn for a knife from the Bagwell's forge. As to the bear and the tiger, I concede the point, but they have an athleticism and strength that I do not.​
 
Great post, thank you
 
I haven't posted alot in the last few years, but I lurk and have owned a bunch of HI knives. Still got a few. I'm interested in taking a gander at these DVD's. Actually been wanting to get into studying some bowie-specific type stuff. Most of my blade training was a bunch of filipino stuff back in the day, and they concentrated on machete / short sword and then small 3-4" blade stuff. Though I guess the machete stuff works with bowies too. I've been out of the game a long time, I need something to dabble with.

Got a couple different HI bowies, Sirupati, and a bunch of other bowies or bowie-type knives.
 
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