Hammer weight for forging.

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knight_shadow

Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
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Due to a death in my family I have not been able to do much when it comes to knife making. This year I am trying my hand at forging ( rather then stock removal ) and have already gotten an anvil ( 4 X 4 X 16 steel in a 5 gal bucket with 4,000 PSI concrete holding it in place ). I have also setup my forge and got a nice 55 gal drum making charcoal. I have done a little blacksmithing when I was in my teens ( 36 now ) when I helped make a conestoga wagon with an old time blacksmith that lived next door to me.

Now the question. ;)

When I worked on the wagon we used large hammers ( well large for a 15 y/o at the time ). I think they were 5 LB and up. The only hammers I have right now is an 8 LB and a 2 LB. I was wondering if a 2 LB hammer is enough to forge out a blade ( Only time we used one that small was for fine work or to make sure we had alot of control over the steel ). I don't mind extra work for more control.

So the question is this. Will a 2 LB hammer be enough to forge a blade? When I get a chance to buy a new hammer what hammer would be best? I am on a very fixed income right now so I can not sink to much cash into the setup.

What I have right now.

15 gal Wash Tub with black steel pipe for the Forge ( All galvanized areas that can get heat has had galvanize removed with acid.)
4 X 4 X 16 steel in concrete for anvil
Grinder disk
Belt grinder.

Thanks for any advice.
 
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At present, I do more blacksmith work than knife making, but I use a 2.5 lb hammer for normal stuff, and only grab the 3 lb when I need to draw out a large piece. It's more a question of what size hammer can you control well ? A smaller hammer may take a little longer, but if you can control it well, you won't have to deal with deep dings that show up where you most Don't want them to be. :) Your 2lb should be fine, unless you start working with 3/4 inch square stock. Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth. :)
 
Thanks for the reply. I am going to start out with junkyard stock ( I guess that is as good a term as any ). I also have a few lawn mower blades laying around that I should be able to hot cut a few working pieces out of. I have not been near a forge for a very long time so I figure I would start slow and work on hammer blows and control. I would like to make a perfect knife first try but I am also going to be realistic about my skill level right now and I am sure what I make will not be the best. One good thing is that all I have is time. Unless it is raining I will be outside working at the forge ( raining today tho :( )

Ray Plank said:
At present, I do more blacksmith work than knife making, but I use a 2.5 lb hammer for normal stuff, and only grab the 3 lb when I need to draw out a large piece. It's more a question of what size hammer can you control well ? A smaller hammer may take a little longer, but if you can control it well, you won't have to deal with deep dings that show up where you most Don't want them to be. :) Your 2lb should be fine, unless you start working with 3/4 inch square stock. Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth. :)
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I've heard of fellows using hammers as heavy as 10lbs (Joe Kesslar, MS). Last year I had to undergo shoulder surgery for a torn rota-tor cuff, with severe nerve damage to my brachial-plexis nerves (bundle of nerves from spine to arm). I literally could not move my arm more than a few inches from my waist, for months. When I forge a knife now, I use various hammers weighing from 3.5lbs down to 1.5lbs. I never go any heavier, I can't really? I use the 3.5lbs, to shape the tip of the blade and draw out the taper along with the edge. I then set the choil with a cute little 300gram (.66lbs) hammer. The rest of the refining work is done with my 1200 gram (2.5lbs) hammer.

I got all my hammers on sale. The 3.5 pound hammer was $5 at home depot. I cut the handle down by 1/3rd to fit better in my hand. The 1200gram and 300 gram were purchased through Kane & Son's Blacksmith Depot....on site in NC. I paid $35 for both of them. My total outlay for all three was $40.00.

I'm not sure what shipping would be from the Blacksmith Depot. When you get your hammers, try and round off the faces, so there are no sharp edges...I learned this the hard way.
 
Looks like my 2 LB should be ok to start out with then. The first thing I did was round out the edges on both ends then made one end of the hammer more rounded so I can put the bend into the blade ( not sure what it is called I think it may be call counter bend not sure but when done pushing around the steel the blade should be back straight ). I may check into a 3.5 or a 4 LB. I think Ace Hardware has a 4LB Sledge that should work if I cut the handle down alittle.

Thanks for your replay. This forum has been very helpful ( I also got a few books like the $50 Knife shop and so on ).

bobbywett said:
I've heard of fellows using hammers as heavy as 10lbs (Joe Kesslar, MS). Last year I had to undergo shoulder surgery for a torn rota-tor cuff, with severe nerve damage to my brachial-plexis nerves (bundle of nerves from spine to arm). I literally could not move my arm more than a few inches from my waist, for months. When I forge a knife now, I use various hammers weighing from 3.5lbs down to 1.5lbs. I never go any heavier, I can't really? I use the 3.5lbs, to shape the tip of the blade and draw out the taper along with the edge. I then set the choil with a cute little 300gram (.66lbs) hammer. The rest of the refining work is done with my 1200 gram (2.5lbs) hammer.

I got all my hammers on sale. The 3.5 pound hammer was $5 at home depot. I cut the handle down by 1/3rd to fit better in my hand. The 1200gram and 300 gram were purchased through Kane & Son's Blacksmith Depot....on site in NC. I paid $35 for both of them. My total outlay for all three was $40.00.

I'm not sure what shipping would be from the Blacksmith Depot. When you get your hammers, try and round off the faces, so there are no sharp edges...I learned this the hard way.
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I would argue that except for drawing out a tang, the heaviest hammer you should really ever use is ~2.5lbs

You'll be able to keep controll and keep hammering for a much longer time. I've seen some of the best architechual blacksmiths in the world, and the biggest (non sledge) hand hammer that any of them used was a 3lb cross pein, and more of the work was done with a 1.5lb to 2lb hammer than anything else.
 
Well it is no longer raining so I got the new forge out and lit a charcoal fire. Got it going good and put in a lawnmower blade. I was able to use the 2LB hammer and the edge of my make shift anvil to hot cut it into 2 pieces and even straighten it without much work. Funny enough I felt more in control with that 2LB hammer then I even did with any other hammer I have used. With the 2LB I could feel every movement the steel made.

I only had one problem with it all tho.....

It did not last long enough :D I was having so much fun and just about the time I was really getting into it I had to anneal the steel :rolleyes:

Well I guess I can wait a few hours. I have learned one thing tho. I think I will have more fun making the knife and as of now not sure how much joy I will get when finish ( be hard to match the feeling of forging tho ).
 
knight_shadow said:
I only had one problem with it all tho.....

It did not last long enough :D I was having so much fun and just about the time I was really getting into it I had to anneal the steel :rolleyes:
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I'm not understanding why you would have to anneal the steel part way into your forging. I never anneal until I have the blade shaped. It's the "last" thing I do before taking it to the grinder. The steel doesn't care if it's annealed before going to forging temperatures.

I forge the steel into a blade, then I normalize three times, then I anneal. The normalizing at this stage probably isn't needed, but I just like to have it in a very stress free matrix before I anneal or grind. After grinding and sanding then I normalize 3 times again and then harden and temper.

I agree on the 2 pounder. I have a bunch of hammers, but do 99% of my forge work with the 2 pounder.
 
So there is no need to soften up the steel ( anneal ) after hot cutting? humm talk about killing time then. I have read on a few how to sites to anneal it first but that may be if they are going to do some filing before hand. In that case I think I will turn my anneal into a normalizing and get to forging then.
 
knight_shadow said:
So there is no need to soften up the steel ( anneal ) after hot cutting? humm talk about killing time then. I have read on a few how to sites to anneal it first but that may be if they are going to do some filing before hand. In that case I think I will turn my anneal into a normalizing and get to forging then.
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Exactly! Here is my forging process. I don't have as much experience as many on here, but have learned from many of them.

  1. Heat to forging temperature.
  2. Forge to a knife shape.
  3. Cut off and finish any final forging.
  4. Normalize three times.
  5. Anneal.
  6. Rough grind.
  7. Sand to 400 grit. I like to get it nice and smooth before heat treat, as I don't want large scratches that need to be sanded out after heat treat.
  8. Normalize three times.
  9. Harden.
  10. Temper.
  11. Rough grind a second time.
  12. Finish grind to at least 400 grit.
  13. Start at about 300 grit sanding and finish out to my desired finish.
  14. Add bolsters or guards.
  15. Add handle.
  16. Finish out, touching up anything that isn't just right.
  17. Make a sheath.
  18. Show to friends, bladeforum members, and hopefully sell it.
 
Justin.Mercier said:
I would argue that except for drawing out a tang, the heaviest hammer you should really ever use is ~2.5lbs

You'll be able to keep controll and keep hammering for a much longer time. I've seen some of the best architechual blacksmiths in the world, and the biggest (non sledge) hand hammer that any of them used was a 3lb cross pein, and more of the work was done with a 1.5lb to 2lb hammer than anything else.
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I would have to argue on this, small hammers work shallow, their energy dissipates quickly, they are good for surface upsets, but they do not give you deep movement. While I use a 3-kilo peddinghaus for serious drawing, my everyday hammer is a 4 pound antique straight pien. I have a 2 pound Centaur H133, and a 2 1/2 pound craftsman cross pein but they do not offer any control advantage over the 4 pound, it's all in what you train with.. I use them at this point mostly for upsetting and shallow deformation shaping, the speed advantage the heavier hammer gives saves me 20%+ in reheat cycles

-Page
 
Scott, If you've normalized three times you shouldn't have to anneal .You also shouldn't have to normalize x3 again though if you think you've put stresses into the steel while grinding a simple subcritical anneal/stress relief would do.
 
2.5-3 is the plausibility range, heavier and you are wearing yourself out for not much benefit. Some think bigger hammer is better because you can move more metal, but you swing slow. Swing a lighter hammer which you can swing more and swing faster before tiring, and you can get the same amount of work done.
 
Well I let the annealing go ( after reading the post ) and was going to reply back but my ISP had a problem and could not get back on the forum. I made a small skinning knife and funny enough it did not take long to get the bevel hammered out. I have the tang done and the blade hammered out. Now I have a few more steps ( already normalized and did my belt grinding ) so time to harden and temper and get some 600 to smooth things out.

It is not the best and I am sure I made some errors but I am happy with it.
 
Sam Salvati said:
2.5-3 is the plausibility range, heavier and you are wearing yourself out for not much benefit. Some think bigger hammer is better because you can move more metal, but you swing slow. Swing a lighter hammer which you can swing more and swing faster before tiring, and you can get the same amount of work done.
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Once again, surface VS deep movement

If you have skinny ams and never work deeper than 3/8 inch you will probably get all you need from a 2 1/2 pound hammer:D

-Page
 
Heh, difference in philosophy then, seems like Sam and I learned the same general way. If you need to work more than 3/8 of an inch deep in one blow, you should be using a striker with a sledge not a hand hammer =)
 
Justin.Mercier said:
Heh, difference in philosophy then, seems like Sam and I learned the same general way. If you need to work more than 3/8 of an inch deep in one blow, you should be using a striker with a sledge not a hand hammer =)
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to me one of the beautiful things about forging is that I can start with almost any shape of stock and end up with almost any final shape, I am no longer limited by the starting dimensions of the metal. If I need thicker I can upset or fold and weld, if I need thinner I can draw out, then of course there's Damascus :D

Of course I don't just forge blades either.

-Page
 
One of the more important lessons I had to learn about forging was "compromise". When I say compromise, I mean compromise between hot and heavy and compromise between strength and dexterity. One of the benefits of using a hammer that is a little heavier in the "point shaping" procedure (usually at the start) of forging.....is less likelihood of re-heating an re-pounding. Compromise between "hot and heavy". Get it as hot as you can, (without going into the burning range), then whack it as precise as possible, in the right area, with the heaviest hammer you can control. This can save you so much aggravation.....the tip will form to shape with much less hammer swings and usually no "fish mouth" or "C" shape. Once you have used your muscles in the beginning (with heavier hammer), you can move on to progressively lighter hammers and reduced heats. This is the dexterity portion.
 
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