hamon clay/tempering clay

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I am trying to find some hamon clay, or a recipe for it, but to no avail! Any ideas anyone? Would also like some advice on making a hamon line on a 01 blade. All I have to heat treat, is a oxy/act torch, and a convection range.Feasible, or a pipe dream? Thanks!!
 
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Brian Goode is one of the few I know of that puts a nice transition line into O-1. A long time ago, I saw a post describing his technique, but I haven't seen it in some time. I believe he uses an O/A torch, but I'm not sure if he uses it during hardening or to draw on the temper line.

FWIW, O-1 needs 10 minutes + at temperature to reach its full potential. That's very hard to do evenly with an oxy/acet torch.

As for clay, many people use furnace cement or satinite.

--nathan
 
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Nathan has summed up the situation quite well. While I am hesitant to say it would be impossible, your chances of success don't seem very high. Even if you were able to heat the steel evenly, at the right temp, and without oxidizing the crap out of it, I don't think you would end up with much, if any hamon. With O-1 you have about 9 seconds to get it below the nose of the curve on the TTT chart. I'm not sure how to properly phrase this metallurgically but, the steel hardens too slowly to give you a distinct grain boundary.


I think that you would have much better results and much higher probability of success if you were to get some 1084 and use that. I believe that Aldo still has some nice 1084 available.

As for the clay; furnace cement is readily available at hardware stores (at least here in the U.S.) I have seen Rick Barrett use Rutland furnace cement.
5RU-65-xlg.jpg

Satanite is available from various knife supply houses. Darren Ellis, among others, sells it.
 
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I have used the fireplace cement that you can get at Canadain tire and Home hardware and it works great, , let it set for a good two or three hours before doing heat treat,

You will have to find ecthant for after to make that hamon pop, I use muratic acid, it can be tough to find in Canada but you can get it at some large electrical supply companies, not the source thou.


hope this helps

jimi
 
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You can buy muriatic at the hardware store here, if you can't up there then try to find out where brick masons get their supplies.

O1 doesn't do activity well, it'll give you a line, but usually doesn't get really active. I think Brian is edge quenching, not claying, but I could be wrong about that.
 
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A few years back I ground a few blades out of 01 and what I did was heat the blade with a MAPP Gas Torch till it was rather evenly colored (lol to my eyeway). Then I waited till the blade cooled off (with quenching it) and then used Satanite to make the (temper?) line? wouldn't really be called a temper line actually! and then using a MAPP Gas/Oxygen Torch from Bernzomatic, I heat the edge and followed only the areas not covered in satanite and heated it evenly as much as possible for 5 minutes or so, (NOT PERFECT) and then edge quenched in vegetable oil in a baking cookie sheet.

Unlike heating in a forge i'm guessing, the line was curvey. Jason Cutter told me that if you use a forge even with satanite or clay, the line on O1 generally comes out straight and rather boring.

This is again for fun really and one would not trust the hardness to be the same throughout using a torch. An Oxy/Acetaline torch i'm sure would heat much better than the little torch i used. Be careful as holding the torch too long there will melt the steel !

You can purchase Satanite from Darren Ellis @ ellis custom knifeworks.

Have fun and be careful!

Pohan
 
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A few years back I ground a few blades out of 01 and what I did was heat the blade with a MAPP Gas Torch till it was rather evenly colored (lol to my eyeway). Then I waited till the blade cooled off (with quenching it) and then used Satanite to make the (temper?) line? wouldn't really be called a temper line actually! and then using a MAPP Gas/Oxygen Torch from Bernzomatic, I heat the edge and followed only the areas not covered in satanite and heated it evenly as much as possible for 5 minutes or so, (NOT PERFECT) and then edge quenched in vegetable oil in a baking cookie sheet.

Unlike heating in a forge i'm guessing, the line was curvey. Jason Cutter told me that if you use a forge even with satanite or clay, the line on O1 generally comes out straight and rather boring.

This is again for fun really and one would not trust the hardness to be the same throughout using a torch. An Oxy/Acetaline torch i'm sure would heat much better than the little torch i used. Be careful as holding the torch too long there will melt the steel !

You can purchase Satanite from Darren Ellis @ ellis custom knifeworks.

Have fun and be careful!

Pohan

If I took the blade before any heat treating, put clay over the blade, except the edge, heated the edge with a torch, quenched just the edge in oil, then tempered, would that work? I'm not sure I follow your instructions! You heat the knife, quench it, then put on the clay, and reheat the edge, and quench it again, in oil? Why do you do it twice? Thanks!!:thumbup:
 
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You can buy muriatic at the hardware store here, if you can't up there then try to find out where brick masons get their supplies.

O1 doesn't do activity well, it'll give you a line, but usually doesn't get really active. I think Brian is edge quenching, not claying, but I could be wrong about that.

try ferric cholride instead of muriatic , this will darken the steel and get a good contrast between the to area's, muriatic is great for stainless damasteel and that's about it.

you can build a small charcoal forge for peanuts and it will work great for heat treating and for forgeing, this way you can get a nice consistant heat and more control over the end result,
three cinder blocks, a pipe with holes in it and a hair dryer is all you need
you can temper in a toaster oven and you have goodconsistant heattreatment.

snakesandstuff001.jpg



Blade finish is also important for a hamon, I handsand to 2000 grit than etch
then clean with semi-chrome

I learned how to do hamons for Wally Hayes video Katana-tac, great info on a basic setup

kinda funny , I learned from his video and now he live around the corner from me . Now I save money on videos



cya
jimi
 
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Hi Jim - I actually use FC and not muriatic. I've seen it used on stainless damascus and loved how it popped, but I was mostly just offering a possible solution for those who wanted the muriatic. Just wanted to clarifiy.
 
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If I took the blade before any heat treating, put clay over the blade, except the edge, heated the edge with a torch, quenched just the edge in oil, then tempered, would that work? I'm not sure I follow your instructions! You heat the knife, quench it, then put on the clay, and reheat the edge, and quench it again, in oil? Why do you do it twice? Thanks!!:thumbup:

I suppose you can do it that way as well, but the back of the blade will be in a very soft/annealed state.

I took the MAPP Gas Torch heated the entire blade to an even red and then let it cool back down to room temperature. (it hardened somewhat even without quenching in oil). Then I put the clay on the blade to all the areas where I didn't want it to heat up super crazy, heated up the edge again this time with a MAPP/Oxygen torch and then quenched in vegetable oil. Follow the line of clay you put and "color" in the areas with the torch that do not have clay on it. That's probably the only way you'll get a HAMON on 01 and not have it come out straight.
 
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I suppose you can do it that way as well, but the back of the blade will be in a very soft/annealed state.

I took the MAPP Gas Torch heated the entire blade to an even red and then let it cool back down to room temperature. (it hardened somewhat even without quenching in oil). Then I put the clay on the blade to all the areas where I didn't want it to heat up super crazy, heated up the edge again this time with a MAPP/Oxygen torch and then quenched in vegetable oil. Follow the line of clay you put and "color" in the areas with the torch that do not have clay on it. That's probably the only way you'll get a HAMON on 01 and not have it come out straight.

Got it! Thanks! I'll give it a try next time!!:thumbup:
 
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I have used the fireplace cement that you can get at Canadain tire and Home hardware and it works great, , let it set for a good two or three hours before doing heat treat,

You will have to find ecthant for after to make that hamon pop, I use muratic acid, it can be tough to find in Canada but you can get it at some large electrical supply companies, not the source thou.


hope this helps

jimi

I know its been a while, but i thought i would add to this. Anywhere that stocks pool supplies should stock muriatic acid, gallons of it, for cheep. If you get it at an electronics supply play, they will charge $20 for around thirty ounces. I got my gallon at a pool place for $20.

By the way, there are procedures all over the internet on best ways to use acid to etch your blade. I recommend reading up a bit, some of it isn't necessarily intuitive.
 

Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

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Welcome to Shop Talk.
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10 year old thread.

FYI, most hardware stores in the USA sell muriatic acid for $4-$6 a gallon.

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