Hamon disappeared....?

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Mar 30, 2015
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5
Hello, first time poster, however i have been browsing the forums for quite some time. ive been making knives for about a year and a half and have started getting into 'clay' coating. About a 8 months ago i attempted differential hardening using ruthlands furnace cement with mixed results, first one had a bad hamon (not too interesting, little wavy...) and bent it sideways, i was able to fix the warp. spurred on by my success i did it again, however i cracked the blade in 3 places and the edge snaked and i got discouraged... i have recently started up again and i opened my jar of furance cement and found it mostly dried out, however i managed to coat one blade, i have always used 1095 and i do a interrupted quench in 10% brine (3 seconds) then into canola oil for 3-4 seconds in and 3-4 seconds out. it cracked near the tip, and i snaked the edge, however i had left it thick enough to grind it down post heat treat and the crack was about 0.40 inches from the tip so i ground that down. The next one i got satinite coated a blade and did the same 3 second brine and then interrupted canola oil quench. I failed to surface prep the blade and one side blew off some time in the quench, resulting in no hamon, the blade also snaked even though it was thicker than i would normally quench.

Taking from my experiences, i made a new blade, left the edge much thicker than before, about twice the thickness of a knife that i would normally oil quench. i drew a template on it so the satinite was evenly applied, about a 1/4 of the edge exposed and decided to try only oil quenching. So i heat cured (stuck the blade in front of the forge) got a even heat, just past non-magnetic and quenched in cool canola oil and shook it around rather aggressively ( slicing motion to get a quicker than normal quench. The blade came out perfect. dead on straight, no warping no snaking no cracking. I took it to my grinder ground off the scale and satinite and could see the hamon in a low grit (100). Then i did a quick ferric chloride dip and it looked great. Tempered it at 375 and used a 60-62 rockwell scratcher thing and it would not scratch the blades edge but would the part where i had clayed it. . I should also mention that the unprotected part passed the file test and the clayed portion failed.

I did post heat treatment grinding and began to finish the blade and noticed there wasn't a hamon showing up. i got to 320 when i decided to race to 600 and do another acid test. The result was as this (in the picture, also freshly etched and before the oxides were even wiped away). Before during my first test, just to confirm i got a good pastern, it did a wave roughly every inch, just above the bevel, and out to about 3/4 of an inch from the ti

How could this happen, my blade never got more than pretty warm during the grinding ( i could still hold it bare handed) did i do something wrong in the quench or what? it is as if the hamon retreated. Suggestions...? Advice?

8


in case the above didn't work here is a direct link
http://i59.tinypic.com/15fm59k.jpg
 
Several things:
One - stop brine quenching unless you get pleasure from cursing :) . Get some Parks #50 and you will be happier. If you want to use brine, get some very clean W2 or switch to Hitachi white or blue steel.

Two - Hand sand past the initial bevel reduction after quench. Start the hand work at 220. NEVER BUFF THE BLADE!

Third - The hamon will "sand away" often. It does not seem to be there because the metal surfaces are so evenly sanded. The hamon needs to be "developed". Use FC diluted 10:1 or more and work the hamon in short dips with a rub of the hamon area, then another dip. Once the hamon is showing well, brighten the areas above and below it. I use Flitz above the hamon, and a variety of fine powders below it ( tin oxide, chrome oxide, red oxide).

Here is some of many good threads on hamon polishing and more:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...u-don-t-have-anymore-activity-or-whispy-stuff
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1063852-My-first-hamon-disappears-with-polish
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1227392-What-s-in-your-Hamon-quot-kit-quot
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/997744-My-Hamon-Process
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/712415-Hamon-Formation
 
Thank you, I intend to get parks 50, i got a quote from someone for about 150$... not quite ready for that, however it is a top priority (about a month from now). I should have mentioned that i started from 120 grit, i use a 4x36 sander and used a zirconia belt and ground the blade with the scratches going length wise, then started by hand with a piece of scrap metal that i use as a sanding stick (nice and straight and very hard) my ferric chloride is 4:1.
 
In order to show the picture, just copy that link you posted, and click on the little icon that looks like a "window" next to the "film strip" looking icon just above the typing area (the place where you can choose: text size, font, bold, etc tec.) .. just hover your mouse over it and it will say "Insert Image".... Click on that, then paste that link in the box and click OK, and there ya have it :)

Also, is that just shadows and a big reflection, or does the temper line (hamon) really cover most of the blade like that? I'm talkin about the "shiny" area in the pic.

15fm59k.jpg



~Paul

My YT Channel Lsubslimed
 
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It is not a shadow, that is the temper line, Thats what im asking. like i said after the harden a quick dip in my ferric chloride showed a nice hamon wave and after the grinding and sanding it retreated.
 
Hmmm.. well that's weird. When I read the title of this thread I thought you meant that it was fading the opposite way, as in the hamon was getting closer and closer to the edge. Shallow hardening steels which are the best to use when shooting for a hamon (Low alloy steels such as 1095, 1075, W2, W1 etc.), I believe harden higher up the bevel on the surface (outside) of the steel and as you get closer to the core of the steel, the hardened portion fades lower, getting closer to the edge. At least that's what I "think" happens and hence why they are called "shallow hardening" steels, as opposed to deep hardening steels with higher alloys like O1, 52100 etc. that "through" harden, all the way through the steel.

lol sorry I know this isn't helping you with your problem, but I just found that interesting how it "looks" as if the hardened area is getting higher up the blade as you grind into it and sand away more steel. :confused: I'm stuck, and not qualified to even guess what's happening. Even more confused since you tested the edge and spine with the 60-62 RC tester and they 'passed', so it's sounds as if decarb is off the list, since people are usually fooled by it when doin a file test because it makes it seem as if the edge didn't harden... but like you, I sure am interested in hearing what others have to say! :D sorry man..

~Paul

My YT Channel Lsubslimed
 
I really can't tell anything from that photo.

Sand the surface by hand to 400 grit and etch for 10 to 30 seconds. See if it shows better. Try to tilt the blade a bit to remove the reflections.
 
Ok, so i took the blade to 600 grit and could see the line, but gave it a quick dip just for the hell of it, same result, where the hamon was only near the handle and not all the way down the blade. So i just took it back to 600 and threw a handle on it. Took notes on what i did and what i think i did wrong, what i think i did right and applied and so if it ever happens again, i will be able to link the cause, or at least narrow it down. I'll post a picture back here when i finally get one right.
 
The front half of your blade got too hot and harden up under the clay. And or the clay wasn't thick enough on that part of the blade.
 
Not to thread jack but I am also struggling with developing the ever elusive hamon. Stacey do you only use different media above and below the transition line? I've tried diluted ferric, lemon, and vinegar. I see the thing but then I go over it with loose 1500 grit silicon carbide and all the detail disappears besides the temper line. The area above the hamon never stays dark. I've gone back and forth on so many different methods it's hard to remember them all. One thing I have not done is just polish above and media below.
I have tried brine quench, got tired of cracking blades, so then I went to a flash in brine for a few seconds and then into canola. One person suggested more thermal cycling to refine grain. I also know I need a better quenchant.
As you can see in the pictures I'm just hand polishing it off. The etch picture is a terrible one but I already erased ones that showed more detail. This was like the 5th go around of it. I literally hand sanded this blade for 3 days straight. (Not kidding). It pretty much ended up as an etched temper line that you could see grain topography in. Not a whispy pretty hamon. This was 1080+
C7261CE3-7B25-4945-BABA-F1CFEA04312A_zpstgg81r1q.jpg

609C67B6-9430-4709-B06E-F68AD4C15E5A_zpsjuyuqe42.jpg

F6BF68F9-681A-43AB-A43B-110C0D62C927_zpsbsb67lbv.jpg

C8B008A5-94D7-4D2B-9A0B-6100EEC921AA_zpspwpzuz9q.jpg

This one was 1075 that the edge cooled off too much before I quenched it.
AAB99FB2-0E54-4EEF-9B19-07EBA79C0679_zps3bufljdb.jpg

And basically just a line
6380DB93-6730-4246-B7B4-20473248FA46_zpsdthgpfmu.jpg
 
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1080 has too much manganese to allow a very active hamon. Read 'deep hardening'. Use a shallow hardening steel.
 
It could have been, my forge isn't the greatest, and i have noticed the tip always gets hotter than the heel, i have since punched a hole in the back that allows me to get a more even heat, also i have done 3 blades, one with a thicker coat of clay, one with a normal one and one that is between the other two, i got even heat on them and after quenching (shaking in a sawing motion in canola oil) they all appear to have taken a nice hamon. I have two of them awaiting hand sanding, and one that needs edge refinement and subsequent grit refinement before its ready for hand sanding. Ive been testing the hamon through out the process, quench and temper, grinding, and polishing to see if there is any changes in its activity (there shouldn't be?) I also took pictures of the blades while clayed and and of their respective hamons, just for reference if anything goes wrong. I'll update when they have been finished. Hopefully i will have some pretty blades to show pictures of. I Also have a picture of a fully completed knife (Ruthlands furance cement), I'll dig around and post that later
 
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