Hamon or not?

Hephaestos

Hephaestos

Joined
Dec 8, 2008
Messages
9
Hello,
Ive got one more question about hamons... Just began sanding and polishing the seax-blade that I mentioned last week already. Below you see pictures of the blade with the clay layout before quenching in oil and one just after scrubbing the clay off. The edge is hard, the back is soft, so the hardening has been successfull.
I do NOT want to etch it if possible and my question is, if I simply polish it down to 1000-grit, will a hamon be visible if there is one? So if I do NOT see a hamon, is there none, or do I need further/different polishing?
Thanks...
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Etching the hamon is not the same as etching a blade. Use lemon juice, or vinegar, and rub it into the hamon just before the final stages of polishing. That ,plus using iron oxide (or Flitz) at the end will make the hamon pop.

I just read the link for hybrid polising. It gives good advise.

Stacy
 
Stacy! I've been meaning to thank you for that package you sent up to me! I'm putting it to good use... What is that wood though, I haven't figured it out? Best guess is a Walnut burl.

Anyhow, back on topic...

When polishing for the hamon; after the blade is etched with the vinegar and the black and gray oxides are on the blade, which area gets polished? Do you polish to whole blade inlcuding the spine or just at the hamon?
 
Once the blade is brought to final polish all over, the hamon is etched.The etchants can be any diluted acid. Lemon juice, white vinegar, 100:1 nitric acid, 10:1 FC, etc. Then you have to decide how to proceed. A simplified hybrid polish will usually do fine.
If the hamon is really nice looking and active, you don't want to do much to it. In this case,selectively polish the ha and the ji (hardened edge and the softer blade surface). Use iron oxide mixed with choji (clove oil, but any light oil should do), or Flitz. Using a gun cleaning pad and a small drop of the mix, carefully polish the edge lightly going over the hamon. Use more pressure on the ha and ji, but little on the hamon.
The other way is to use a contrast polish. Finish the blade to final polish and etch. Then polish only the ha. Do not go over the hamon. The ha will get dark and shiny, and the ji will stay white. The hamon will remain smoky, as it was not touched.

For the ultimate in hamon, do a traditional shiagi togi. Read several good books on it before attempting it. The process is far to complex to fully explain here. For a knife blade it is really overkill, anyway.

Stacy
 
I always had the best luck sanding to, say 800-1000 or whatever, then cleaning the blade really good, doing a light etch in really weak ferric chloride and then sanding once more with the last grit I used. It still made the hamon pop, but it wasn't a dark etch. Don Fogg's forum has tons of great pics and info on polishing to make the hamons really explode without etching, but that is another level of knifemaking than what I was ever doing! :-)
 
Thanks for the instructions... concerning the hybrid polishing, the idea that I will have to heat the blade seems rather strange to me... Will I not get further tempering effects?
Is it possible that there's no hamon visible ALTHOUGH the edge hardened, and the back did not? I am just getting a little nervous because I am down to sanding 220-grit and there's still nothing to be seen...
 
What type of steel is it? If it is a shallow hardening steel like w1, w2 or 10xx series than the hamon will be there.

Bob
 
This one was oilquenched, polished to 1200 grit, etched with hot lemonjuice, and then polished with brasso + chromepolish.
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Steel is UHB20.
I'm sure your hamon is there :-)
 
I am just getting a little nervous because I am down to sanding 220-grit and there's still nothing to be seen...
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What I remember of the process (it hasn't been THAT long since I last made a knife!) is that I recall seeing it really faintly, then as I would sand it would bring it out a touch, then it would disappear for a couple grits. I can't tell you exactly what grits that would all happen at, but at 220 grit you aren't going to see much. With a good 400 you should see it, particularly when you angle the blade just right in the light, and by 600 if you don't have anything then something bad happened. Personally, I would take it to 320, give it a quick dip in ferric chloride to make sure there is a good hamon there, and then continue on with the rest of my sanding.
 
Due to trial and error. I have found my best results are from as follows.
Leave edge .030-.040.(Blade sanded to 400 grit) Apply a very thin clay wash over entire blade. Apply a clay coat of 1/8" over entire blade. At this point I use a simple tool to make my hamon line. Its a piece of leather with a slit in it from the top to about 1" down. (leather is 3" long 2" wide.) Place the edge in the slit and draw my hamon line. This makes both sides the same. Note I use simple steels.10XX series. Let the clay dry overnight.. Heat to 1450-1475. Straight into 80deg. parks 50. 3-second hold out for 3 in for final cool. Clean off clay that didn't blow off. Finish blade to 1000 grit. Soak in white vinegar overnight. Polish with Flitz. Done.
I have tried FC, home mixes of muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide. lemon juice,and many other things. The above have yielded the best results for me.
 
That is a good, simple procedure. I like the leather clay stylus doing both sides simultaneously.

Hephaestos - The heating of the blade in doing a hybrid polish ( if you heat at all) is not enough to affect the temper. You are only heating to 200F-250F. Of course, avoid overheating it by accident.
Stacy
 
Hello again. I did as you suggested, sanded to 400-grit, heated it a little bit and gave it a dip in vinegar. The good news is, that there is actually a hardening line (cant call it a proper hamon), so the steel is suitable. That was one concern, because I used a large old file of unknown steel. But unfortunately, the hamon is much too shallow! I think the clay was either applied too thick, or went down too far towards the edge. The blade is really thick at the back and will have an enormous heat capacity anyway. So, a little too much clay, and it will not cool fast enough in the oil... What do think? Does that make sense?
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From the photo, I would say you need to re-do the HT. The soft steel is going right to the edge . Use less clay and have it only go part way down the blade. You need as fast an oil as you have available,too. Obtaining a hamon is a definitely a learning experience, it often takes a bit of time (and several tries) to get the procedure right.

One reason to use only one known steel for this is that each blade has its own set of quirks, and changing (or not knowing) the requirements of the steel really puts you at a disadvantage.

Stacy
 
Yes, reclaying and HT seems the only solution. For a moment I was thinking to leave it like it is, since that was my first attempt at creating a hamon. But I will always get an acking stomach when I look at it. So maybe after Christmas I will start a new approach...
..use only one known steel...
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I must admit that using scrap iron, like files, truck-springs or whatever I find at the scrapyard is part of my philosophy... I also tried making my own steel from iron ore that I collected. I am not a professional knifemaker, so an error more or less does not mean I wont have anything to eat for the next few weeks. I have already learned quite a lot on how to judge a steel's properties from it appearance, sound and behavior. But there is always more to learn...
You need as fast an oil as you have available,too.
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That is why I was considering using a water quench next time... although I do not have good experiences with water. Below you see my so far first and last water quench. I did not believe it was possible to split a blade lengthwise....
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Hephaestos,
Here's my thoughts. Spend a few bucks. Get a bar of 1080. Make a couple of knives. Follow my directions above. (If you water quinch use a brine, add alot of salt to the water. Use distilled water. Heat till critical when a magnet no longer sticks. back in the forge for 30sec. straight from the forge to the water. 2second count out for 3 second count in for 3 out for 3 in till cool). I highly recomend useing Parks#50 or AAA quinch. Water all to often will ping the bell. Have your oven pre heated to 425 deg F. scrape off clay and temper for 1 hr. Others may have different metods but this works for me.
My point is if you use a known steel and you get it right. You will be happy as a 3 peckered puppy. Getting one right does more for your confidence and gives you a great feeling of accomplishment. You can still play with mystery steel, but you can do it knowing what you are capable of.
 
I had a tantoblade that ended up like yours recently. I gave it a new Ht and was more carefull to get the temp right - I think that's where I messed up the first time - and it came out much better. Even though it's your first, I'd go for another try - It'll bother you each time you look at it :D
 
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