Hamon question

[Whoever Wherever]

I hear about people etching to bring out a hamon all the time. However in my traditional batto-do training we did tameshigiri constantly. The one thing I learned quickly was that a good sword polisher was worth his wieght in diamonds.

The thing that strikes me as odd is that they all swore up and down that tradional hand polishing was the only good way to bring out a hamon and that etching was never done in traditional katana making. Several told me that slight dammage can occur over time with an etched blade while the traditional method would preserve the hamon and structure of the blade through hundreds of sharpenings.

Anyone confirm or deny this issue? I guess with an etched hamon you would have to re etch it every time you sharpened the sword. Is time the reason so many non japanese smiths etch hamons? Is there any risk to the blades integrity over multiple sharpeneings? Also, does anyone here use traditional methods to bring out there hamons?

I know that some of the best knife makers etch there blades to reveal hamons so i am doubting that it has a serious effect but with a knife you usually just sharpen the secondary bevel not touching the hamon, this isnt the case on a user katana. Thanks for any clarification on this subject.

 

[Galloglas]

The thing that strikes me as odd is that they all swore up and down that tradional hand polishing was the only good way to bring out a hamon and that etching was never done in traditional katana making. Several told me that slight dammage can occur over time with an etched blade while the traditional method would preserve the hamon and structure of the blade through hundreds of sharpenings.

Anyone confirm or deny this issue? I guess with an etched hamon you would have to re etch it every time you sharpened the sword. Is time the reason so many non japanese smiths etch hamons? Is there any risk to the blades integrity over multiple sharpeneings? Also, does anyone here use traditional methods to bring out there hamons?

Long story short (as a one time teacher of Sword arts and a maker of swords...) there is more than one way of doing everything and more than one correct point of view. Traditional stone polishes look great on an art sword and last about 30 seconds in the dojo. Swords used by martial artists to test cut need to be sharpened at regular intervals and repolishing by sending the sword to a togishi (traditional polisher) every time it needs to be touched up is going to get very expensive, very quickly considering that the better tradtional polishers are getting $100 an inch to polish.

On working swords, I etch the hamon to bring it into prominence and touch up swords that need sharpened by dressing the edge with ceramic stones. If allowed to get very dull they do need to be repolished but not necessarily fully.

Keeping a sword looking like an art piece in the dojo is impossible if you are using it to train and cut with and many sword arts practitioners don't intend their swords to be pristine and perfect when used as a weapon or training tool.

My opinion is that enhancing the appearance of the hamon with mild acid like fruit juices or vinegar does not damage the sword permanently if done by someone who knows what he is doing. Some folks can screw up just about anything.
Long story short...

Brian

 

[Whoever Wherever]

Thanks, makes sense. I am very aware that your sword does not stay looking pretty in use for long, tatami mats are abrasive anyways anfd we usually had used ones with extra grit. Ah the smell of dirty wet mats. I was wondering more about the dammage but knid of thought the polishers may have just been partial. I know I would be if that was my job. I suppose that acid could be dammaging if it wasnt fully neutralized, but couldnt think of anything that it could do short term. So i was wondering if the issue was resharpening and etching but I suppose it wont be any different than the first one after sharpening since the surface is fresh. My sensei would do quality touchups for us but we sprang for real polishing whenever we could ($120 an inch). I certainly see your point that your dojo sword looks beat up anyways and your art swords dont see that knid of abuse anyways, so I guess its mainly a moot point if there is no blade dammage from etching.

 

[NickWheeler]

Just something to add for the new fellas reading this.

When you speak of polishing in terms of Japanese bladeware, you are talking about not only fine work to reveal the hamon, but the foundation work that determines the geometry of the blade.

It would be a perfect world if we could do any sort of high end polish (traditional or not) and have it stay pristine in use. I would sure love it! But it's not going to happen.

I talked to a polisher once about doing a bowie of mine that I was quite happy with and he informed me it would cost rougly $110/inch. That's pretty spendy even on an 11" blade!

 

[Galloglas]

Nick makes great point about traditional "togi" or polishing. The traditional polishers of Japanese swords are very dedicated and specialized craftsmen and the skills take years to learn and apply properly. One thing people don't realize about "real" Nihonto (Japanese swords) is that a really quality polish, even if the sword is just kept as a collectable, will only last so long. Then the sword needs to be repolished...a blade oxidizes when exposed to oxygen. So periodic polishing is mandatory and necessary.

If done by folks who don't undertand the style of the blade, the period it was made, the smiths intentions and school and all that the blade can be permanently ruined by polishing as it is impossible to put the steel back!

So, for traditional swords, maintaining the proper shape of the sword and maximizing the proper attributes of the hamon and the steel grain (hada) and all that needs to be done by someone who really knows what he is doing. And that means paying a specialist polisher the price he asks.

I have seen quite a few $30,000 swords and we wouldn't want some bozo down in the basement with sandpaper and crock sticks touching up the polish on these irreplaceable culteral icons.

Brian

 

[the possum]

You've already gotten replies from folks far more qualified than me, but thought I'd throw in another thought that I've read from other, qualified folks.

Traditional swords may have slight (non fatal) flaws or openings in the steel grain or welds. I've read that often a polish job can expose hidden flaws beneath the surface. So, you'd never want to expose such a blade to any kind of acid, because it would get down into the openings where you could never clean it out, and rust the blade from the inside out.

Brian-
I'm sad to hear you describe yourself as a "One- time maker of swords". I always looked forward to reading your latest experiments with non traditional heat treatments and stuff. You plan to get back into it someday? Have any other stories to share?

 

[Galloglas]

Nahhhh...I still make 'em and mount 'em and train with them. I'm just between teaching jobs where swordsmanship is concerned. So, I'm a one time teacher but I'll be damned if I ever stop making them.

Here's the last one I finished mounting. Randal Graham blade and all the rest is mine.

My personal opinion on the "acid getting in the open grain and rusting the blade from the inside out" concept is that it is a myth. I have etched several pattern welded blades with modest open welds or some amount of loose grain and never had rusting. But that's because I am careful to neutralize the etch after it is done and oil the blade well with proper oil.

Tons of guys etch pattern welded blades with ferric chloride to bring up the pattern and we never hear about those blades rusting into oblivion. My personal belief is that this rumor was started by intimidated traitional polishers by conjecture. If you have worked with the technique you quickly learn the neutralize the etch with some solution of ammonia as a stop bath.

Brian

 

[the possum]

So, I'm a one time teacher but I'll be damned if I ever stop making them.

That's really great to hear.

Here's the last one I finished mounting.

OOOOOoooooooooo.....
Care to provide any specs?

My personal opinion on the "acid getting in the open grain and rusting the blade from the inside out" concept is that it is a myth.

Well, then I certainly thank you for chiming in with your first hand experience. I've etched lots of pattern welded blades, but don't think I've encountered any with forging flaws yet.

 

[Hondo.3]

I just read through this thread. It was interesting and informative.

$100-110/inch just blows me away. I'm nowhere close to that league. The most expensive knife I own cost me that much to have made. At that cost, I would be the guy in the basement with sandpaper and croc sticks.

 

[Whoever Wherever]

Whenever I had thoughts that I didnt need to practice or pony up for sharpening I had to remind myself of what the goal was.

Notice that he has finished gedan shiburi (formal blood shake) and is almost finished with his noto (sheathing the sword) and gravity has just started to effect the cut pieces. NOW THATS FAST and none to easy with anything but a sharp sword. Dont forget your looking at him in his 70's. I saw him cut through very thick fresh and dried bamboo in his 80's. He liked to stress that we are sharpening our swords allways for we do not know what tommarow brings. He was bieng philisophical at the time but its a good lesson on many levels.

Nice work Galloglas! Thanks for all the input guys.