Hand forging - can it really transform steel?

Buffalohump

Buffalohump

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Sep 7, 2006
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I was having a little debate with a friend today about the benefits of forged steel versus super steel. I pointed out that a handforged knife can be diferentially tempered, vastly improving performance when it comes to strength and stress on the blade. But he wasnt convinced. He reckons the high carbon steels that forgers like to use cant compete with super steels along the lines of S90V and CPM-M4. So help me convince him. What are the benefits of forging? Can you really turn a bog standard carbon steel into something special by bashing it with a hammer at really high temps? School me here people, I need to win this argument! :D
 
The benefit of forging is that you can get a cool look.:thumbup:
Also, if steel were expensive (which it isn't), you could use less of it to get the same result.
Heat treat is a separate thing; stock removal knives can be differentially heat treated, or treated any other way you choose.
It doesn't pack the steel any denser, or anything mystical.
But it does make it easier to attribute animistic qualities to the blade, if you're into such things.:)
 
yeah sure forging can transform the steel, for the worse, you can get grain growth, decarb, and other issues by forging, but few if any benefits.
 
the biggest advantage to forging a knife out that I know of is less limitations on what you can make with regards to shapes and sizes.
 
I'm mainly a stock removal man myself, but I do 'dabble' in forging.

To me the best thing about it is the greater range of material sizes that can be used.

I've used ball bearings and funnily enough, I spent a good part of this evening straightening a car's coil spring for some future blades...two examples which would be impossible with stock removal.;)

As for making a superior blade by one method or another, I wouldn't like to say....I'm no expert on either method, but I've never noticed much difference in mine.:D

Ian
 
yes Lorien is right some shapes especially when it comes to handles would be impossible to achieve by stock removal. also neglected is that forgeing is a ton of fun, but not everybody can do it due to where they live, or cost etc.:grumpy:
 
I'm afraid you've lost this one. A "very" well respected smith says that the best you can hope for is to not make the steel worse than it was. You can't pound goodness into it.

Just a few short few years ago, there were still people here that believed the old myth that you can pack the molecules of steel with a hammer. I took a few of them to task, and got bashed for it.

In truth, you can change the molecular structure with a hammer.

As long as the hammer has a NUKE ready to be set off under it. Other wise.

NO!

You can move metal under the hammer. That is all.

You can burn the carbon out in the forge very easily however.

Many smiths use different tempering techniques for different parts of the blade. So do many stock removal guys. If done correctly, ie-truly hardened, and tempered differently in different areas of the blade for a purpose, it can do great things. If however, as some smiths do, hardened the edge, and never harden the spine at all, all you have is a blade with very weak structure. One that is going to fail at the worst possible time. (This is why the bend test of the ABS is a "test" only. Not how an actual blade is to be made.)

I've said it before, and I will say it again. If hammering metal, truly produced superior steel, you would find thousands of smiths at all the different Aero Space companies. You Don't.
What you will find is very qualified metalurgest, and top heat treaters. Think there might be a reason for this?

Mike
Maker
The Loveless Connection Knives
 
The biggest advantage for me is I do not put half my bar stock on the ground in the form of dust, I am able to utilize all my stock. For me this is important with integrals you can imagine how much a stock remover puts on the ground. Also like Lorien has stated I am not limited to what I can do with certain stock where stock removers need to have their stock for the appropriate knife size. Another thing forgers can do that stock removers can't at all is make pattern welded steel.
 
Like Mike, I do it for the pattern welded steel. You have to forge to make it. Yes you can buy it but for me not what I want . Also the waste, and the use of round or square stock. The other huge benefit is it is a great stress reliever. Pounding on hot steel is far better than a shrink
 
I often repeat the age old blacksmith saying that says,
"The most a blacksmith can hope for, is to end up with a piece of steel as good as the one he started with."
We have far more opportunity to ruin it with our process of forging, than we do to improve it.
And, in the words of Jerry Rados, "A piece of steel sent down from Heaven, will only be as good as the heat treatment it gets."
 
All AISI-SAE designated steel is cast and forged and in order to make an unforged knife you would have to melt and recast it. Not many knifemakers use as cast knife blades.

Johnny
 
It's interesting to see the attitude change from makers and collectors alike. A few years ago, Kevin Cashen's analysis was disregarded by many.
 
Thanks for all the input gents, it is indeed a fascinating topic! Roger, I will read the Cashen article later at my leisure, I don't want to rush through it. :thumbup:
 
Like said, forging doesn't make the steel any better, but the steel can be brought to a more desirable state with proper forging practices, thermal cycles and heat treating. This can vary greatly in blades from same steel, but different makers.

Your argument should be, simple high carbon steels vs high alloy steels. Personally I like a thinly ground, very fine grain, high carbon blade. More so than the high alloy stuff. It puts a smile on my face :D
 
ahh, the old edge packing process I have stood in the crowd and heard smiths say now I am going to pack the edge and most smiths that have done there homework know that you can not pack grain with a hammer. but if you watch what they do to pack grain you will see that they are without knowing it, doing thermal cycles. so yes they are getting a finer grain structure by bringing it to a dull red two or three times I think this explains why the myth lived on for so long because fine grain is fine grain no matter how you get it .
 
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