Handgun choices???

V42, I already responded to GBP for my thoughtless, and uninformed post. I don't carry a gun for defence, I carry a knife, and have yet to encounter a situation that warrented it's use. I should've thought before puttining my two cents in, but I already got change for it.
 
Anything worth shooting is worth shooting well.

My daily alternates between my 1911 and my HK USP .40 full size. I carry both cocked and locked.

As for how many shots each target gets, I shoot until the threat is stopped. If that means I have to empty a mag on someone, so be it. (Please note, this is training, I've yet to shoot someone.)

Carry ammo is Federal Hydrashok in 230 for the .45 and 180 for the .40 - good stopping power data. I find that I am more accurate with the .40, but I just love the "sewer pipe" effect of the .45 - nothing like looking down the barrel of a good old 1911, right?

Kevin
 
Ack. I got here late. It's gonna be hard to catch up. :)

As far as guns go, pick what you're comfortable shooting...one that fits what you need in terms of how you'll carry...and one that is sufficient caliber for what you're carrying *for*. Picking a cartridge for self defense isn't all that different from picking a cartridge for hunting. The caliber, weight, and bullet design should fit what you're after in the conditions you'll be shooting.

I carry a Glock 21 and a Glock 30 backup when I'm working. I carry my Glock 30 off duty...both with 230grn Hydrashok. I wouldn't hesitate to carry a number of high quality semi-auto handguns on the market with the exception of S&W and Beretta (personal opinion, of course). I also wouldn't have a problem with carrying a revolver for defense...but there's no way I'd carry one on duty anymore (I used to). All it takes is one "officer rescue" drill or extended gunfight and you quickly learn that in the environment we work in you need more rounds available for tactical flexibility.

Talking about caliber choice is like talking about religion or politics. I've responded to a lot of gang shootings, officer involved shootings, and I've been in one shooting myself. I'll give my $.02 from what I've seen (this is referring to hollowpoint ammo only)...

9mm is certainly adequate for engaging human sized targets. It's advantages are good penetration through objects compared to other handgun calibers, high capacity, light recoil, and guns built on smaller frames. It's disadvantages are they tend to overpenetrate human targets (rounds fly out the back), they cut a smaller wound channel (even with HP's), and they seem to deflect more easily on angled targets or bone.

.45ACP is still the measuring stick for a lot of people. It's advantages are very large wound channel and ballistics that seem to consistently leave the rounds sitting in the skin on the backside of human targets (just right). They have adequate penetration through objects, although not as much as 9mm in most cases. In my opinion, it is the perfect round for human targets.

.40 S&W is a good compromise round. It has a larger diameter than the 9mm but can be used in the smaller frame sizes normally built for that cartridge. It doesn't cut the same wound channel as the .45 but it's bigger than the 9mm and has a slightly higher magazine capacity than the .45.

It is true that hollowpoint rounds can plug with material, especially sheetrock and heavy clothing (like a down jacket). The .45 has a huge advantage in this case because it starts out roughly the same size as an expanded 9mm HP so you still get a good wound channel. A plugged 9mm leaves a very very small channel.

10mm, .44 mag, and other "large" calibers have a big overpenetration problem in human targets and they don't seem to gain anything in terms of effectiveness in the real world.

Ok...I forgot what else we were talking about. Maybe I'll add more later.

Oh, VG.....add me to the camp that recommends you don't mix your rounds. Load up those mags with 230grn Hydrashok, use 230grn Hi-shok for training (same round, no post, cheaper).
 
i have heard that the WORST ammo for defense is the 9MM 147 grain, they dont expand well/overpenetrate - the best 9MM is supposedly the +P+ or +P ammo, in 115 or 125 grain - cor-bon is readily available, a 115 gr JHP @ +1300FPS, approaches .357 mag/SIG ballistics - personally in my family the only 9MM in use is my wifes SIG P225, and we (she)loads it with winchester ranger +P+ 127gr SXT or Remington +P+ 115 grain - these are LEO loads, but if ya look at gunshows, etc ya can finf it , albeit at a high price - i paid $17.95 for a box of 50 of the winchester ammo last wk, but the cor bon is about the same thing, and more readily available to the general public - the US border patrol carries the remington load, and is getting 90+% 1 shot stops w/it - myself? give me my .357 SIG or my .45 ACP please, 9MM to me is only viable in a small gun like a khar P9, which i am fixing to get, a small light gun, it looks handy imho


sifu
 
Sifu,

The 147 grain 9mm is a heavier slower load that shouldn't over penetrate and I haven't read anything about 147 grain Federal Hydrashock not expanding?


Maybe others might have opinions?
 
Ok Rick, I'll take the bait...

I "borrowed" this from DocGKR's posting on the "Real World" forum, "9mm question for DocGKR" over at www.tacticalforums.com

"Terminal velocity and kinetic energy are not directly very important factors in assessing damage to tissue, as they are not mechanisms of wounding. What is important in analyzing injury, is what anatomic area has the bullet damaged and how severe is the damage. There are two mechanisms of damaging tissue: tissue in the projectile's path is permanently cut and crushed by direct contact with the bullet as it pushes through tissue and tissue surrounding the projectile's path is briefly stretched and displaced by the passage of the projectile. The effects of the Permanent Cavity, or hole created as the projectile cut and crushes the tissue in its path are reliable and consistent based on what anatomic structures the bullet disrupts and the severity of the tissue damage. Since larger projectiles crush more tissue, they create a larger hole and damage more tissue. The Temporary Cavity is the empty space briefly formed by the transient, radial displacement of the tissue surrounding the projectile's path. The tissue that is stretched by the Temporary Cavity is analogous to an area of blunt trauma surrounding the Permanent Cavity and like all blunt trauma injuries Temporary Cavitation effects are extremely variable and erratic. The severity of any injury resulting from Temporary Cavitation is highly dependent on anatomic and physiologic considerations. For example, elastic, flexible soft tissues, such as muscle, bowel wall, skin, blood vessels, and empty hollow organs are good energy absorbers and are highly resistant to temporary cavity stretch injuries, while inelastic tissues, such as brain, liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, and completely full fluid or gas filled hollow organs are highly susceptible to severe splitting, tearing, or rupture due to Temporary Cavity stretch insults. Unlike many rifle bullets, the relatively small diameter temporary cavity created from typical law enforcement handgun bullets, such as 9 mm, .357 Magnum, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP, does not reliably damage tissue and is not usually a significant mechanism of wounding.
Handgun bullet fragmentation is not an advantage, in fact, it is a detriment. In every autopsy and laboratory test I have conducted or observed, when a handgun bullet in the commonly used law enforcement pistol calibers, such as 9 mm, .357 Magnum, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP has fragmented, the resulting tissue damage has been decreased since the bullet diameter has been reduced. The fragments have generally been found strung out behind the bullet in the primary wound track and have not increased the amount of tissue damage.

In general, Cor-Bon is some of the worst performing ammunition that we have tested. Corbon appears to purchase bullets and components from other manufacturers and then increases the velocity beyond the range for which the bullets were designed. This results in variety of problems: over expansion with shallow penetration, bullet fragmentation and smaller expanded diameter, failure to penetrate intermediate barriers--all leading to decreased wounding effects.

9mm Corbon +P 115 gr JHP: Vel=1367f/s; pen=10.2”; RD=0.50”; RW=70.5gr
9mm Federal 147 gr JHP (9MS): Vel=961 f/s, pen=12.3", RD=0.61" RW=147.1gr

This is typical Cor-Bon performance. Which bullet is more effective? Obviously, the slower bullet that did not fragment created a larger hole, would damage more tissue, and result in potentially more rapid incapacitation.

San Diego PD switched to the 9mm 147 gr JHP when their lighter weight, higher velocity 9mm 115 gr JHP bullets had several failures to penetrate deeply enough to create damage to vital organs in the torso and cause rapid incapacitation. The largest independently verified study of bullet penetration and expansion characteristics in living human tissue has shown the 9mm 147 gr JHP to offer acceptable performance in law enforcement lethal force confrontations. A senior criminalist with the San Diego P.D., Mr. Eugene J. Wolberg, has analyzed their 9 mm 147 gr JHP performance in 10% ordnance gelatin and compared the laboratory results with the actual terminal effects produced in human tissue in nearly 150 officer involved shootings with the San Diego Police Department. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, the majority of their bullets had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. This appears to be ideal performance from a 9mm. Other large California agencies using the 9mm 147 gr JHP, such as Los Angeles PD, Los Angeles SO, San Jose PD, Santa Clara PD, Santa Clara SO, San Mateo SO, and San Francisco PD have had similar results. These and other California agencies successfully using the 9mm 147 gr JHP have thousands of officers with hundreds of officer involved shootings. Perhaps the documented success of the 9mm 147 gr JHP in California is a result of differing laws of physics on the West Coast than in other areas. Unfortunately, that conjecture does not stand up to scrutiny as the extensive Royal Canadian Mounted Police studies determined that the 9mm 147 gr JHP was the most effective load for the caliber. In addition, during the ammunition trials for the M11 pistol (military Sig P228) done at Navy Weapons Center Crane Indiana, the Federal 147gr JHP (9MS) was selected as the issue load for the M11, beating a variety of other 9mm JHP loads, including both standard pressure and +P pressure115 gr and 124 gr JHP’s. This same load was also procured by Crane for use by Tier One military units authorized to issue JHP ammunition with their 9 mm weapons, such as the Sig P226 and MP-5N.

I am not attempting to represent a "low velocity argument" any more than a high velocity theory; rather, I am reporting what we have found during our independent testing of ammunition. I do not care what velocity or weight a particular bullet possesses, as long as it has appropriate penetration and expansion characteristics; at this point in time, however, I have observed that moderate velocity, heavier weight handgun bullets appear to offer the most effective combination of penetration and expansion, although this may change as technology improves."

------my comments added here------

This "heavy weight" stuff was a real eye opener for me...I'd always been a "faster is better" kinda guy...and I'm sitting on more cases of 110 Gr. Hirttenberger +P and 115 Gr. Corbon +P than I can count...So, faced with the "facts"...all new 9mm bulk purchases are gonna be 147 Gr. "stuff"...and I'm kinda partial to the Federal "Hydra-Shok's"...in the mean time, I've got some new "plinking" ammo...lol

Also, I sold my Glock 19...not because it wasn't accurate, but because I had a difficult time transitioning to anything else. If you're a "One gun" shooter, or even a "One type of gun" shooter...then the Glock should do ya just fine. Personally, I like SIG's...because I can hit targets with them, and they work well, always...and for no other reason than that.

"Porty Pibes?" You betcha...and I prefer SIG P220's over 1911's...I know, *Blasphemer*...but then again, that's just me...

My favorite 9mm? It's got to be our Browning model P-35 Hi-Power's...they "talk" to me... (not to mention we have S/N 9695 from the first lot of 11,000)... :D

H&K P7's? The most fun, most accurate (other than S&W revolver's) handgun I've ever shot...I should buy some of those soon, they're definitely "cool!"

That's it for now...

Sleep time...

*poof*
 
Thanks, Melvin.

I think this is a very important subject.

Anybody else have an opinion?
 
AMMO :
180 gr. Ranger (winchester) SXT. Why? Because it works and the results are nasty.

Weapon :
On duty it would be my Glock 22. Off duty, my Glock 23. Both w/night sights.

In the grand scheme of things, if you hit it right, it should fall. Don't go around looking for one shot/one stops. If you achieve a OS/OS, great, but I say shoot it again if you can and when legal to do so.
 
Not much to add to that excellent post by DocGKR (through Mel). That guy really knows his stuff. After hitting your target in the right spots, penetration is what really matters, since it's imperative to reach the vitals - and sometimes the bullet might find an arm, a shoulder or a bunch of muscle and/or fat to go through first. I'm another convert from the "faster is better" camp (at least when it comes to handguns - high velocity rifle ammo is a diferent story).

Leo
 
Just to piggy back on Doc GKR stuff (he is really the man on this stuff). After personally being involved in over 50 officer involved shooting investigations, I have found the following-use the heaviest bullet in any caliber driven at a moderate velocity seems to be the formula that works best for handguns in the anti-personnel role.

The post about failure drills-I have four shooters who I have exclusively trained on my team that have performed either textbook failure drills, or on demand head shots in the field during shootings-it can be done. Training is the key.

Gun choices-Generally Glocks-pur simplicity and easily worked on with a consistant trigger press. I love my P7, but it is a total dedication system. I like the Hk USP's in .45, and older (non U.S. assembled) SIG's. I have my own thoughts on .357 mag and why it works-maybe I can take that up with CJ on a different thread.
 
I am currently engaged in a LEO occupation where we are required by department regs to use 9mm.They issue to us Winchester 147gr +p+ ammo. It is essentially the old Black Talon load with an added petal.Unfortunately I have had to use it in a deadly force situation and it performed admirably(I am still around!) I like the Hirtenberger +P+ (non subgun) stuff.It is a jacketed soft-point and works well in my USPC.It also works well in my MP5 and Colt SMG.One last thing about it,it has a tendency to slice thru auto safety glass even at oblique angles on the first shot.I am VERY famaliar with the testing done at Crane here in Indiana.I trained there for advanced gunners mate classes while in the Navy and still am invited back for graduations(scary,ain't it?) Big Wave Dave OUT
 
Dave, MY MAN, Welcome to the forums and this board!

I need to get over there for the finesse work on my P9.

Man, good to see ya here!

Talk to you soon!

Uhm guys......Dave's been there, done that, got the t-shirt, wore it out, got another, wore it out too!

Ok, sorry, he's a great guy, and I wasn't at all expecting to see him here.

Welcome to CJ's forum my man!

TIRFC....right, not......TARFU

Out.
 
Originally posted by Bravesfan1995
Don't go around looking for one shot/one stops.

Right On, Right On, Right On. If you are lucky enough to get one, good for you. But, Bravesfan1995 is absolutely "RIGHT ON" here!
 
well it depends on whose data ya wanna believe - check out handguns oct 2000, 'why NYPD changed to hollowpoints' - by ed sanow - article goes into the fact that 'due to 17 cops being struck ny hardball/subsonic rounds in 2 yrs NYPD dtermined that the subsonics had a penetration problem' and after studies, including ballistic gelatin studies conducted at quantico by the FBI, they determined the best round in 9MM for them to be the +P+ 9MM 115, and only adopted there current load a 124gr speer gold dot +p because the round had to function in all NYPD weapons, and the +P+ wouldnt function in the MP5's - they were gonna adopt the winchester ranger +P+ 127 grain SXT but didnt because of the stigma associated w/black talons (early 90's) - it also qoutes 'cycle reliability problems, excessive soft tissue penetration, low stopping power, and other probs' snd cites US border patrol and illinois state police having 90+ % stops w/+P+ 9MM 115 grain - so i guess ya pick who ya wanna believe, and go w/it cause everyone has an opinion on heavy/light bullets for 9mm, what about 357SIG, heavy or light- placement is the key, no handgun is gonna reliably stop anyone- also much more data in combat handguns, etc on the subject, most critical of the 147 - who's right??? i dont know.........


sifu


sifu
 
Oooooooo, 115 delicate speedsters vs. 147 slowa** fatties!

No, I don't want any part of that.

I'm pretty "conservative" in my ammo selection, choosing Fed. 9BP 115 JHP (NON plus P) for my Glock and BHP. Cheap, reliable, low-recoil, and with a good reputation from real life shootings, because they've been around awhile.

In .45 ACP, I'd go with standard Fed. 230 JHPs. Again, cheap enough for a poor guy like me, and they seem to have a decent reputation. Alternates would be Silvertips, Hydrashocks, the Fed. "Personal Defense" 165s, or the Lawman 200 JHPs. Whatever I find to be reliable, and almost anything works pretty well in .45!

I keep Fed. 125 Nyclad "Chief Special" standard pressure loads in my Colt Agent for home defense.

And if I begin carrying in Ohio? Since it will be ILLEGAL, my "carry gun" will probably be a KelTec P32. I'll load it with either Silvertips or Fed. 90 gr. JHPs. Maybe Hydra Shok.

If there is an actual terrorist attack anywhere in which I decide a gun armed citizen could have made a difference? All bets are off and Gov. Taft, Sarah Brady, and the rest of them can kiss my a**.

I'll be armed with whatever I can hide. Probably my G-19.

Karl
 
I go with what is more reliable info. I knew Gene Wolhberg well, and was very familiar with his work at SDPD, who have had a lot of shootings. I have spoken a number of times to DocGKR, he is also very well respected, and my own agencies shootings (at one point we had 52 officers involved in shootings in two years, and I worked 10 in January 2001 alone). I don't buy one bit of Sanows info, because I am aware of how agency confidentiality works. Try a test, call a major police agency that has a very large number of shootings to draw from, and ask them to send you ALL of their officer involved shooting investigation files-see how far you get. I know for a fact that because of their official positions (as opposed to auxillary officer in a six man department who writes for the gun mags)people like Wohlberg, Dr. GKR, Fackler, and others have full access to both shooting investigations, and can compare those findings to scientific, replicatable tests. You will find some better info from these folks, and most of that is restricted. I would also expect over penetration from any FMJ round, and I really don't think they have a place in LE, especially in NY-it is almost criminal negligence to issue FMJ stuff in an urban area for police work.
 
Originally posted by SIFU1A
well it depends on whose data ya wanna believe -...- so i guess ya pick who ya wanna believe, and go w/it... sifu

sifu, I'm going with Doc GKR, Mel, Leo and the majority of people here with the 147 grain and recommend you do the same.
 
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