Handle Ergonomics

[UnknownVT]

Some knives just feel right in the hand - they "fit right".

Obviously everyone's hands are different so just as obviously YMMV.

However our hands are not that different so some generalities may be valid and applicable.

This is mostly pictorial since I think this is probably the best way to illustrate what I mean.

These comments are restricted to the way I normally hold a knife for general cutting.

First there is a very good reason why the classic Loveless drop-point hunter is so popular and highly regarded - it is a comfortable knife that fits the hand well - there are probably many people who would back that up with $$$Ks (thousands of dollars).
I can't, but here's something that's not a million miles away -

Bill "Gordon" DeFreest stag handle "Loveless" drop point, by way of George Herron -

Note: these photos - I gripped the knife as if I was about to cut - took that photo, then opened my handle to show where the handle is positioned.

A very important point for me is where and how the butt of the handle presses against my palm heel - this is a very important safety consideration for me - especially when pushing hard with the point. If the butt of the handle is pressing against the my palm - there is virtually NO danger of my hand slipping onto the blade - guard or no guard.

As one can see the butt of the handle here rests/fits nicely against the heel of my palm. The handle is comfortable there and the knife balances well the way I hold it.

The large Chris Reeve Sebenza -

The Sebenza is one of my all time favorite folders - it fits my hand quite well -
BUT one can see the butt is not quite as conmfortable against my palm heel because of the the more angular shape - it is shaped - but is still a bit too angular for me. The straight back of the handle also is not ideal. Nevertheless this is still one of my favorite knives - just because I like it.

Kershaw Vapor II (~$25)

The Vapor II has got to be some kind of all time bargain - a quality frame-lock - and as one can see from the photos fits my hand real well. Look at the way the butt is curved to fit the heel of my palm, and the curved back just fits better. The handle is a bit thin a few millimeters more would make it ideal - but at ~$25 I'm not complaining, too much.

Bargain? How's $6.70?
Opinel #8

The Opinel #8 is the all time bargain - quality at an almost "disposable" price. Its convex ground blade cuts like crazy, and it's easy to maintain by simple stropping (even cardboard will do).

Having lavished praise on the Opinel #8 - its handle is just so-so - not UNcomfortable - but neither can it be called comfortable either - it's just OK. Feels to me like holding a broom handle - OK it is slightly better....

The butt digs into the palm heel - to be fair there is some bevelling so at least there isn't a sharp corner - but it's not exactly comfortable either. The round shape is utilitarian - but not particularly ergonomic - it's not uncomfortable - but I've already said that......

But at $6.70 - I am more than willing to overlook this as I said it isn't uncomfortable and I can more than live with it.

Fiskars Puukko -

Puukkos have fairly simple but well contoured handles - this Fiskars Puukko fits quite nicely, the butt isn't ideal pressed agaist the palm heel - but it is more than acceptable.

The handle butt against the palm heel is essential for my use and safety - I wouldn't even like to think what's it's like to have my hand slip onto the very sharp puukko blade. The contours of the handle are really nice fitting my hold well.

Note the index finger "cutout" which the frame-lock folders have in the form of the lock release cut out - that's another reason why I like frame-locks so much as any hard use tends to tighten the lock more, rather than the possible release on liner-locks.......

These are some of the "larger" knives/folders -
next post will be on the smaller knives/folders.......

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/

 

[UnknownVT]

On to smaller knives with about 3" blades.

Hendrix #11 Semi-Skinner -

This Hendrix #11 semi-skinner is really comfortable for me - because of the way I can palm the butt of the handle - that gives me bags of confidence in using the knife.

Chris Reeve small Sebenza

Same problem as the large, the butt is a bit too angular to be comfortable pressed against my palm - the handle back is also straight and doesn't fit as nicely - when one compares it against.....

Kershaw Vapor -

Look at how well the knife seems to fit my hand - that's why I was so enthusiastic about the Vapor for such a long time, and wished for a Speed-Safe assisted opening version of it...
which came in the form of the -

Kershaw Leek -

well... perhaps not quite as form fitting as the Vapor - but still PDG (Pretty D@mned Good) - another reason why I am enthusiastic about the Leek, and why it's my at home EDC.......

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/

 

[Jason Cutter]

Firstly, have you been looking in my knife collection ? Aside from the Sebenza and the Hendrix knives, the other "users" are what I have too. The Vapour II is my own EDC and personal favourite - bargain ? You betcha ! I also agree re:- the handle thickness.

Secondly, my views on handles are very similar. I also believe the "palming action" of the handle is crucial is ensuring a knife is safe. As you've pointed out, it works regardless of guard or no guard. This idea also came about as I researched how I wanted to design my handles, my latest knife does that too.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=265192

I personally think that short handle may lack the torque and range of hand positions a larger handle might give, but this is where it excels. However, the butt end is also absolutely crucial. Its design determines the comfort level, as you've pointed out; invariably it needs to be rounded and bulbous to fit the palm securely.

The added benefit of such a grip is that it could suit the reverse grip just as well. That may not be relevant to anyone not doing some kind of martial art move, though.

Hunters and meat processors may use a knife is different positions. Some swear by it, some swear at it - the choked up hand positions and choils etc. and also the upside down position for "running a cut."

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=264854

There are also other hand positions that probably relate more to martial arts teaching etc. Whether you ramp your thumb on the spine, how far up, Filipino styles, etc. Even specific "groups" teach particular handle characteristics eg.- Bob Kasper inspired Crawfords and Polkowski's have a slab-sided handle shape which really does allow you to manage torque in the hand with more control.

This is a great thread, Vincent. Ta. Jason.

 

[Jose Reyes]

UnknownVT,

Good thread. My favorite style of knife is the "pronghorn". One of the main reasons is the comfortable handles. I've noticed that some of the features that make it so are the palm swell and finger groove that runs partially into the guard. The groove creates a little hump for your fingers that stabilizes the knife in your hand. The handle also curves downwards a bit heading towards the butt. That removes any sharp edges from poking into your palm and also helps to create a bit of a hook at the bottom part of the butt. That allows the knife to "swivel" in your hand, while taking heavy swings, but makes it unlikely that it'll fly out of your hand.

-Jose

 

[beluga]

I second Jose Reyes. I have one Pronghorn and one Long Yearling (with the same kind of handle) that provide me with the most ergonomic handle of all time. Very comfortable knife indeed, and very safe, not to mention very very sharp.

 

[PWork]

First off, I HATE the word "ergonomic".:barf:
That being said, I'll go with what I look for in an EDC type knife. I like the way a straight handle design feels in my hand. I prefer either an equal end or slightly larger at the butt. I like a handle that is comfortable in ALL grip styles. I like a design where the blade and handle run along the same "line"...when the handle is grasped in a "hammer" grip, the blade sticks out STRAIGHT.
I prefer my knives a little on the small side. A 3" blade is plenty. This means there should be no sharp corners at the butt to dig into my hand.
The most "ergonomic" knives I carry are my small Sebenzas and my alox SAKs. No bells and whistles, just pure, plain function.

Paul

 

[UnknownVT]

Originally posted by Jose Reyes

Jose,

Many thanks for your response and photos.

But may I suggest a different, but to me much, much safer hold for the ice-pick/stabbing type hold?

Place thumb over butt of handle - this way there is virtually no danger of the hand ever slipping on to the blade:

As one can see the Puukko (and other Scandinavian style) knives seem to be designed to accomodate this hold. The handle fits well with the thumb over the butt/pommel.

However with the blade edge facing the other way the hold is not quite as ergonomic
(sorry about the use of this word - but can anyone suggest another word that's as meaningful?)

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/

 

[Jose Reyes]

Vince,

Safety first, good tip! The type of guard Ed uses makes the knife much safer to use, stabbing normally or with the blade tip down, and since it's well rounded it won't dig into your fingers. I used this style of grip to dig a hole into this 2x6. My hand tired a bit before I got all the way through, but my hold was secure and I had no discomfort.

-Jose

 

[UnknownVT]

Originally posted by Jason Cutter
Whoa !!! Twins in a previous life...
Firstly, have you been looking in my knife collection ?
<snip>I personally think that short handle may lack the torque and range of hand positions a larger handle might give, but this is where it excels. However, the butt end is also absolutely crucial. Its design determines the comfort level, as you've pointed out; invariably it needs to be rounded and bulbous to fit the palm securely.

The added benefit of such a grip is that it could suit the reverse grip just as well. That may not be relevant to anyone not doing some kind of martial art move, though.

Hunters and meat processors may use a knife is different positions. Some swear by it, some swear at it - the choked up hand positions and choils etc. and also the upside down position for "running a cut."

Careful now Jason -
don't want them suspecting we're one and the same person do we?

Being in OZ land was a great alibi - I mean when I claim to be asleep - you're active, and vice versa -
they never do see us together do they?

Larger vs. smaller handles:

I think in this case of the choked up hold the smaller handle does fit better.

As for palming the handles - some years ago when I got interested in Japanese tantos - I noticed the very short handles in relation with the blade, and the ones without guards looked way too dangerous to use in a typical trusting action. So I wondered if the Japanese had very small hands (unlikely) and why these tantos were so highly regarded when they looked so dangerous to the user for their typical application......

That is until I figured out that the butt of the tanto was pressed against the palm - therefore one could literally lean into the trust with one's full body weight without any danger of the hand slipping on to the blade.

Ice-pick/stabbing action was easier to figure out that one simply placed one's thumb over the butt/pommel to ensure safety.

Now that you mention it these are the other holds I always try out when handling any knife:

Choked-up hold:

Reverse/upside down hold:

Ice-pick/stab hold

on the stab hold when the blade edge faces the other way - this handle doesn't feel quite as comfortable.

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/

 

[Morgoth412]

Vincent,
For the ultimate in ergo's try Spyderco. They take pride in that.
-Kevin

 

[JDEEBLADE]

You can't keep anything a secret. The handle on the Hendrix #11 is very similar to the one I have developed for my utility series after a lot of experimentation. So therefore there must be something good about it if 2 knifemakers can come up with a similar design on both sides of the Pacific.

All the holds you have shown with the Hendrix I used to develop my handle after reading a book put out by an Aussie many years ago re handle holds. I find one of the most important holds is the 'thrust' where the butt nestles into the palm of your hand to stop slippage when the point hits something hard. When I am checking a knife out it is the first thing I look for.

 

[lpj424]

I agree with Morgoth. The Spyderco SPOT seems to be tailored to the hand. When held with a thumb on the spine, it actually looks like a part of your hand.

Other than the SPOT I like handles with more generic grips. Pre-formed grips like the CRKT KFF or something just never seem to fit my hand well.

 

[Jason Cutter]

Originally posted by UnknownVT
Careful now Jason -
don't want them suspecting we're one and the same person do we?

Being in OZ land was a great alibi - I mean when I claim to be asleep - you're active, and vice versa -
they never do see us together do they?


. Its the Diana Ross, Michael Jackson thing all over. Man, thats a BAAAAD example. And just shows how out of touch I am...

Just to add, with the ice-pick grip, the other unrecognised benefit of the shorter handle and the thumb-over-the-butt grip is that in a lot of martial arts circles where the reverse/ice-pick-grip is promoted, the thumb also allows the knife to be pulled in such a way that the tip and edge orientation to the hand is more aggressive and allows more blade to contact the target during the slash. In other words, the blade comes out almost 90degrees from the fist, rather than more backwards towards the wrist which is a normal grip position. Cheers. Jason.

 

[UnknownVT]

Originally posted by PWork
The most "ergonomic" knives I carry are my small Sebenzas and my alox SAKs. No bells and whistles, just pure, plain function.

As you well know I like (no, I love) both knives you cited -

But for me there is a difference between functionality and "ergonomics" - yes, absolutely sometimes the two come together - but functional may not necessarily be ergonomic.

The case in point is the small Sebenza - first let me qualify this - I do have, and love the small Sebbie - having said that, as one can see from the opening post I found the Kershaw Vapor's handles fits my hand better. The more angular butt of the small Sebenza and the straight handle back fits less well in my hands - but the Sebenza handles are "pure functionality" - whereas in looks the Kershaw Vapor with its fancy "lightening" holes looks almost frivolous - but it does feel more comfortable and fits better. The Vapor is low priced at <$20 and available at that price at the local Wal*Mart to try out.....

The SAK gave me a surprise - I was prepared to find in comparison that my EDC SAK was going to be "functional" as opposed to "ergonomic" - but was surpised by how comfortable it felt.

The keyring - I thought was going to dig into my palm in my hold - and could I have ignored it for all these years?
- it did not - because it was "protected" by the corkscrew/jeweller's screwdriver protrusion.

This is my EDC customized Victorinox Scientist -

notice how the corkscrew/jeweller's screwdriver buffers against the keyring from digging into my palm.

I thought the customized handles might have something to do with the comfort - it did a little - as it is more rounded profile as opposed to flat with rounded corners -
this is the standard Victorinox Scientist -

On keyringed but corkscrew-less models (like many of the Alox handled keyring models) the keyring knub will press against the palm - it is not particularly comfortable - but then it is not very UNcomfortable - just not particulay "ergonomic".

# of layers/backspings - about 2 layers/backsprings seems to feel most comfortable - a qualification - my EDC Vic Scientist has one over-sized backspring/layer. 3 standard backsprings/layers feels OK but just a bit thick in the hand. Having fussed over that, I've successfully used the Champion and SwissChamp models for sawing through thick rusted bolts without too much complaint about uncomfortbale handle holds - and these are thick - I think I can "tolerate" a handle that I can just wrap my hand completely around - so the SwissChamp is probably about max.

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/

 

[bensano]

Originally posted by UnknownVT
As you well know I like (no, I love) both knives you cited -

But for me there is a difference between functionality and "ergonomics" - yes, absolutely sometimes the two come together - but functional may not necessarily be ergonomic.

IN the case of the handle I don't think so. The function ot the handle is to allow a comfortable useful grip on the knife.

One of my favorite handles.

I like wood my favorite handle material comfortable adaptable good in cold weather etc.

Oval cross section, drop and swell at the back slight and wide index finger groove (I would prefer it a big deeper) and a broad comfortable area at the back for womping on with your other hand.

this one is good too better indes finger grip but not so comfortable for using the other hand as a "helper

 

[UnknownVT]

Originally posted by bensano
The function ot the handle is to allow a comfortable useful grip on the knife.

I couldn't agree more -
a functional handle should be one that's comfortable -
unfortunately the same word can have different interpretations -
and sometimes people will say a handle (especially on a folder) is "functional" -
and it is not necessarily comfortable.

Those knives look beautiful -
how is the top knife to palm?
(pressing the handle butt in the palm heel?)

 

[andrewb]

Thanks, Bensano for posting the pics & comments on the Karesuando & Kellam (?) Scandinavian knives. From an ergonomic perspective, one of the very positive aspects of this style is the large size of the handle, esp in diameter but also in length. These knives were developed in the far North, where a good-sized handle is a necessity for gripping the knife with cold, stiff hands, or in gloves or mittens. Go out in the winter & try retrieving, opening, & using a relatively thin, flat metal-handled folder without removing your gloves, & you will appreciate the overall design advantages of a fixed blade with a large handle made of wood, antler, etc.

Those Ed Fowler Pronghorns are really beautiful. FWIW, notice that they also have very generous handles using natural materials, which makes sense since they are working knives developed in Wyoming. It gets colder there than in most of Scandinavia, & even in hot weather gloves are needed for a lot of ranch work. ;-)

Good thread, thanks everyone.

Andrew

 

[bensano]

Originally posted by UnknownVT

how is the top knife to palm?
(pressing the handle butt in the palm heel?)

It fits the plam hollow perfectly (thus it is good for using a "helper" hand) but puts the grip too far back for most cutting.

For palming I like this one:

It palms woderfully and is a great all around handle.

I had Ron put a index notch in it, but I'm not sure that was necessary. A great handle shape for a small knife.

--Ben

 

[PWork]

Vincent,
As far as "ergonomics" and SAKs go, I find the Soldier sized alox knives to feel the best in my hand. The key ring on the officer's models have always bothered me...but then again, everyone's hands are different.

Spyderco SPOT...I have always thought that my hands were a little on the small side. I can't figure out how the finger grooves of this knife fit the average hand. The more I handle it, the worse it feels. The finger grooves just aren't big enough. Maybe (probably) it's just me.

The small regular Sebenza is the most comfortable folding knife I've ever handled. And I've handled a bunch of 'em. Granted they have been mostly production models. Someday I'd like to make it to a show and get my paws on some of customs out there.

Paul

 

[Ed Fowler]

Some many years ago I developed a cumulative frequence histogram identifying 5 grip positions ane went to the kill floor to record the hand postions on a knife while professionals used them.

Six hours of observation and recording grips, resulted in more marks between identified grip positions than in the origional defined grips postions. They were literally all over the handles, incrementally changing from one grip to another constantly.

There are some thoughts that have been well described in the earlier posts, they are all valid considerations.
There are some rules of the hand that are available to all just by asking your hand to use a knife and evaluating what is obvious. One is alignment of the blade with the long bones of your forarm to prevent carpal tunnel. Studying knives of history will reveal that many knifemakers have put a lot of thought into handle design. Sometimes they limit use, but usually for a reason consistent with the intended use of the knfe. You can't have it all, but a functional balance is within grasp. When ever you see a old knife with a dropped handle take time to understand what the maker was seeking.