Handle Ergonomics

[shane justice]

Hallo!
Interesting post!

Looking at the pictures of your "Ice Pick Grip" gave me the willies!

I was taught that was called a "Hammer" Fist grip.

I noticed you did that grip with a blade that had no guard.

This is the most dangerous thing I have seen in pictures!

If you don't believe me then I'll send you a picture of my right hand. While doing some testing with a COLD STEEL Magnum Tanto my hand slipped over the TOO SMALL guard onto the blade. I severed the tendons and nerves in the pinky and ring finger and did some damamge to the middle finger as well.

After $18000 and three days in the hospital I have 80% strength and limited ability to grip.

DO NOT ATTEMPT THAT GRIP WITH ON A KNIFE WITHOUT A GUARD!

I wrote COLD STEEL a letter asking them to enlarge the guard somewhat. There response was TOO BAD SO SAD!

Please guys, don't use that grip. There are better ways to use a knife.

Shane

 

[JDEEBLADE]

The thrust hold is safe for stabbing or bleeding when a deep thrust is needed. The knife handle butt fits safely into the pit of the hand to eliminate the possibility of fingers slipping on the blade edge. A wet knife handle and small or no guards can allow the knife to slip unless this safe hold is used when stabbing. That is why the butt must be a comfortable fit in the pit or palm of the hand.

 

[UnknownVT]

Originally posted by shane justice
Interesting post!
DO NOT ATTEMPT THAT GRIP WITH ON A KNIFE WITHOUT A GUARD!

Many thanks for your input and concern.

However with the ice-pick or hammerfist grip - if one places the thumb over the handle butt/pommel - one can stab as hard as one likes as long as the thumb does not give way - with or without a guard.

As you have noted yourself most guards are inadequate anyway to stop the hand from slipping onto the blade from hard stabbing -
so to be safe the thumb should be placed over the butt/pommel.

I believe this is how Nordic knives such as Puukkos were/are used -
as they are often used to punch/stab holes in ice for fishing etc.

 

[Jason Cutter]

There is one knife design that hasn't been discussed - the push dagger. It also has its own quirks, but its dubious legal standing in most jurisdictions means that it just isn't discussed much. Its not an easy design to get right. The main problems being the design on the centre tang post, too thick and it is uncomfortable in the hand. Too thin and it is potentially weak. Jason.

 

[shane justice]

Unknown VT,
I would have to disagree with you comment that most guards are inadequate to protect the hand from the blade.There are a number of makers who make a damn good guard.

My point in bringing up the issue is one of over-all design. There are far too many makers who ignore this fact.

People put serrations and checkering on handles with the idea that this will somehow affect the ability to grip. What they end up with is hot spots...that is if they use their knives for more than talk.

As for the thumb wrap over the pommel...I guess you have to know more than I do. COLD STEEL makes the claim...I tried it. Designed correctly my hand would have stayed put. Regardless of my grip on the knife.It did not.

GUARDS should GUARD.

SHane

 

[UnknownVT]

Originally posted by shane justice
Designed correctly my hand would have stayed put. Regardless of my grip on the knife.It did not.

I respect your opinion and really appreciate your concern.

I doubt if I know any more than anyone else here - but your:
"Regardless of my grip on the knife." - unfortunately just isn't -
my personal experience is:
thumb over butt/pommel = safe - unless thumb gives way
hammerfist grip withOUT thumb over pommel = NOT safe -
unless guard is very substantial.
Even if guard is very substantial - the thumb over the pommel is additonal safety - which I believe is a good thing.

 

[bquinlan]

Originally posted by UnknownVT
my personal experience is:
thumb over butt/pommel = safe - unless thumb gives way

I'm with shane on this one. Having a thumb over the pommel certainly helps, but I can apply a whole lot more force with a downward thrust from that grip than my thumb could possibly hold against. My hand is going to end up on the blade unless I manage to "pull back" in time or a well-designed guard stops it.

--Bob Q

 

[the possum]

I agree with bquinlan. Out of curiosity, I just went out to the scale we have at work for weighing seed. I pressed with my thumb and found the maximum amount I could apply was only about 23 pounds before my thumb gave out. Then I used my whole arm to press with my fist and got the reading up to about 65 pounds. (kinda embarrassed) So, when stabbing, my arm can deliver more than double what my thumb could possibly hold. This sounds reasonable since my triceps gotta be five times bigger than the muscle that works my thumb.

Yeah, the icepick grip with a guardless knife is safe as long as your thumb doesn't give out. But that's the problem. It WILL give out if you're desperately stabbing anything tougher than a piece of cardboard...

I know the rest of your hand will help hold the knife, but the thumb over the pommel should not be the deciding factor of whether the knife will slip. Either you can hold the knife firm enough, or you can't. I'd rather have a proper guard for any such knife.

 

[Ed Fowler]

Good thinking gentlemen!
I believe that the guard should be comfortable and extend over half the circumference of your finger. This not only provides adequate safety, it also tends ro force the knife edge to turn out of your hand should the hand slip past the guard leaving the edge to slice air instead of your hand.

 

[tc1]

Great thread! I went to my local knife dealer and handled a couple of knives, looking for something that will stay in my hand securely without the aid of a finger hole. Of all the knives I've held there, the Spyderco Moran felt EXTREMELY secure in my hand. I really liked the rubber insert and shape of the handle.

As for the Spyderco SPOT comment about it fitting funny: I carry the SPOT as my EDC and noticed the same thing if you palm it: it doesn't feel like it fits. BUT if I move the knife up a bit to the first set of knuckle joints and close my fist, it fits A LOT better.

 

[UnknownVT]

Thanks to all the input regarding the ice-pick/hammerfist/stab hold.

Let me try and re-word (non-argumentatively) some of my thoughts -
thumb over the pommel/butt is a safer hold - as the thumb will help prevent the hand from slipping on to the blade -
withOUT the thumb over the pommel one is reliant on the hand guard - this may not be as safe.

There is a lot of historic evidence of the thumb over pommel hold as in the majority of Scandianvian knives (eg: Puukkos) do NOT have prominent hand guards - and these were the utility knives that were used to literally ice-pick/punch holes in thick ice for ice fishing.

A lot of Japanese tantos do not have guards - and these were used extensively in combat and were very likely used in the stabbing grip in literal life and death situations.

OK... having said that I wanted to see if I was deluding myself -
and tried a "safe" experiment - I used a wooden Tanto - so there was no danger of cutting myself if my hand should slip - and tried stabbing as hard as I could:

Wooden Tanto -

View from opposite side:

I "stabbed" a folded towel placed on carpetted solid floor in my basement. Started fairly "conservatively", then gained more confidence and stabbed with "all my might" - about as hard as I (sensibly) could - it jarred my arm and my thumb first joint hurt somewhat - but my thumb certainly did not give way.

Obviously there may have been some "self-preservation" subconsciously that may have limited the "all my might" - but it was pretty hard -
and certainly I would say way above 23lb force -
remember it isn't merely the thumb tip/pad that is used but more centered around the thumb joint (see photos).

To stab even harder I used two hands - but with only one thumb over the pommel - it felt as if I was stabbing harder - again no problem in my thumb giving way.

I also recalled and re-watched the demonstrations from the Cold Steel "More Proof" DVD -
there were many knives used to stab stacks of cardboard and "oak" leather - where the knives had no or minimal guards -
in every case the demonstrator used the thumb over pommel hold.

Some of the knives used were:
Ti-Lite (included stabbing car hood); Triple-Action; Arc-Angel; Voyager; Scimitar; Night Force (included stabbing car hood); Hai Hocho; the Spike.

Also in the demonstration of the Spike - a guardless knife - in the "sabre-hold" thrust - the knife was "palmed" - so the pommel/butt pressed against the palm.

Again one should use knives to the degree of safe handlng as guaged by one's own judgement - and as always YMMV.

But for me the thumb over the pommel/butt hold is a safer hold than not placing the thumb over the pommel - with or without a guard.

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/

 

[bquinlan]

UnknownVT: I certainly agree with you that putting the thumb over the pommel is a good safety technique when stabbing from the "icepick" grip. Personally, I use that grip whether or not the knife has a good guard on it. You can never be too safe.

I suspect that the effectiveness of the thumb in preventing slippage varies, based on the individual's relative strength of hand, thumb, and arm muscles. It will also depend on the shape and "stickiness" of the knife's handle and on how abruptly the stroke ends. A thrust into something that gives will slip less than one that just stops abruptly.

Overall, I did not mean to imply that bracing the thumb doesn't work. My concern is that I don't think it will work all the time for all people under all conditions. There are plenty of reasons why a guard may not be approrpriate for any given knife or knife user. I like to have guards on my general-purpose blades to provide that extra bit of security.

--Bob Q

 

[Rick Baum]

Forgive me for jumping in so late in the discussion but I can't help myself tonight...

It never ceases to amaze me that no matter how many saftey features (motorcycle helmet laws, seatbelt laws, airbags, etc) we as a society force upon people in order to prevent the inevitable, there are always a bunch of ripe candidates asking for natural selection to choose them!

Shane offered some litteral first hand knowledge to help anyone that would listen to avoid a possible catastrophy in their lives. Yet there are those that would argue that what happened to Shane doesn't apply to them. (pausing to scratch my head) Nobody can tell me exactly what they will need to do with their knife 1 minute, an hour, a day or a week from now. Weren't any of you nay sayers Boy Scouts? Even if you weren't I'm sure you understand how practical the motto "Be Prepared" can be in a not so "every day" situation. Sure the Finns, Japanese and others developed knives without guards but the real question is why. My guess is because they were tucking the knives/sheaths into their tuniks or sashes and a guard might have a tendency to hang up when attempting to withdraw it in a frantic situation. A properly designed sheath worn in an intellegent way takes care of that scenario.

I want to hear from the nay sayers what tasks they perform with a knife that a decent guard would be a true hinderance?

 

[UnknownVT]

Originally posted by Rick Baum
there are always a bunch of ripe candidates asking for natural selection to choose them!

whoa! before anyone consigns anyone else to the natural selection extinction heap -
perhaps a little careful reading is needed here - I don't think anyone (least of all me) said at any time that a good hand guard was a bad thing - or even unnecessary - all that was pointed out was that a guardless knife can be used safely - if one knows how.

There is no knife that I know of that is safe at all times -
Boy Scout or not
(and if one was a Boy Scout - one should know that)

To be prepared is to understand the limitations of one's tool
(in this case the knife and its dangers) -
and be prepared to handle it correctly -
so one has to choose either to never use a stabbing action with a guardless knife -
or use the correct technique, and understand the amount of force one should exert using this hold -
this is a learned skill - which users of guardless knives over the centuries had acquired.

Again please read carefully - I have not said a guard was useless or unnecessary -
just that a thumb over the pommel hold is a safer hold to use with a knife with a guard or without a guard.

Please let me give another example - the slip joint folder - has been around for centuries. The slip-joint folder is pretty obviously not as safe as any locking knife - yet there are many people who use slip joint knives quite safely -
how? They understand the limitations of the slip joint and never apply pressure to the blade that would accidentally close the knife....
so are these "a bunch of ripe candidates asking for natural selection to choose them"?
Perhaps..... they are "select" not because accidents do not apply to them - but they understand how to use their tools?

Lastly please let me make clear that Shane's advice and concern was appreciated, acknowledged - and not ignored.

 

[bensano]

Originally posted by UnknownVT

There is a lot of historic evidence of the thumb over pommel hold as in the majority of Scandianvian knives (eg: Puukkos) do NOT have prominent hand guards - and these were the utility knives that were used to literally ice-pick/punch holes in thick ice for ice fishing.

I love the Puukko style but as I understand it the handle has a rounded and broadened butt side so it could be used mostly with a pull cut to prevent your cold hand (the word for 'cold hand' is clum we get the word clumsy from there) from riding down the blade.

When used for stabbing (e.g. ice) you hold the blade with one hand and strike the handle with the palm of the other.

Ben