Handle material on very expensive knives

Joss

Joss

Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
7,353
All,

I am curious about your opinion on a question that has been on my mind for a while. Sometimes I see a wood handle on a $1,500+ knife, or a stag handle on a $2,000+ knife. I always feel that those knives should be $75 - $100 more expensive and have at least a mastodon ivory handle (or maybe pearl for small folders).

What do you think? Do you agree?
 
I totally agree. When you get up into the higher prices ($1000+) I feel that wood is unacceptable as a handle material. Your not just paying for the makers time, your also paying for materials. Higher end materials require more care in working, handling and aquiring.

Another way to look at it is the publics' perception of value. A knife with ivory scales has a higher percieved value than the same knife with wood scales.

If a knife has 10K gold bolsters and a similar knife has 14K gold bolsters the one with the 14K gold bolsters has a higher percieved value.

Wayne Valachovic said it best" wood is no good and brass has no class"
 
For folders I agree.
Maybe not for fixed blades.
It depends on the role of the knife. I own two huge Bagwell bowies.Both have wood handles. They are designed as users, but Bagwell's position in the market makes the knives worth between $1500-$2000.

I always feel that those knives should be $75 - $100 more expensive and have at least a mastodon ivory handle (or maybe pearl for small folders).
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Good ivory for a large fixed knife will run you 300-500, while wood is much less, on the average $35-60, so your differential would have to me much more than $100. Most makers will upcharge a bit more since there is a degree of stag or ivory that is damaged during construction and unsalvageable. Even the best stag or fossil ivory can crack.


If a knife has 10K gold bolsters and a similar knife has 14K gold bolsters the one with the 14K gold bolsters has a higher percieved value
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Thats not percieved-its real. 14K is more expensive than 10K and should be priced higher-even though 10K is harder and probably better for a bolster.
 
Handle material is an important component of a knife, however I think there are too many variables to consider when placing value on a knife to get too hung up on it. I don't own any knives with wood handles, but that's not to say if a piece interested me and had a nice desert ironwood handle I would pass on it even if it was a higher end piece. I also believe some knives are more suited for wood handles no matter what the price. I like stag, more specifically amber stag because of it's beauty and durability. Of course, ivory is also nice however requires quite a bit of care.
Morans are not usually turned down because 80% of them have wood handles and Scagel's aren’t usually turned down because 80% of them have stag handles.
I'm sure not going to get bent out of shape because of wood or stag on a $2,000 knife. I will leave that for every time I see a $15,000 or $20,000 piece being sold with a micarta handle. Now in my opinion that's an outrage.
 
I wouldn't consider wood for the handle material on any knife I intended to keep for my collection but a coffin handled bowie...that's just my preference though:D
 
One some knives, wood is best choice for the handle. Some of my favorite expensive knives have wood and silver wire inlay handles. However, if I order a knife in the $1500.00 and up range, I am going to be ordering it with a mammoth or ancient walrus handle.

Really nice stag is a material that I think works on more expensive knives.
 
Would anyone complain if a big Fogg with great hamon were in those price ranges but had cord wrapped handles?

How about Scott Slobodian's work, where they seem to go hand in hand with amazing figured wood polished to such depth and chatoyance that they look like jewels?

I think it depends on the knife. I find worrying too much about the percieved value of materials moves the piece too much into the realm of "art" knife instead of knife crafted by artisan.
 
Since I buy knives more for my collection and interest than for investment, I don't really worry about the perceived value as much.

I really like a good piece of wood as handle - amboyna, afzelia, desert ironwood, maidou, even a nice piece of box elder burl or buckeye burl. If the wood is stabilized it also lasts without a problem.

While fossil ivory is beautiful, I don't think it fits to every knife. Especially not every piece of ivory.

As to pearl - I don't care for most of it. When I do it has to be on the right knife. For me, often it looks like it belongs in the 1980's - Neon, you know.

I should state that my collection is in excess of 90% fixed blades.

...and finally, I find Picassos ugly while others think they are the most amazing pieces of art ever to be seen on earth - as always, tastes differ.
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
Good ivory for a large fixed knife will run you 300-500
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No - at this stage you're talking about unique specimen not your average ivory. You can find small elephant tusks on eBay for less than $300, enough for 2 full tang bowies + plenty of scales.

I have not been reluctant to pay top $ for the right wood handled piece, and this is not what I was hinting at. What I am hinting at is that when a maker invests $1,450 of work, time, expertise in a piece, they could generate disproportionately more excitement by paying $100-$150 for a set of ivory scales than $50 for super-premium ironwood.
 
Thor I am said:
Since I buy knives more for my collection and interest than for investment, I don't really worry about the perceived value as much.
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My question pertains to pieces with an initial selling price over $1,500. Is that also what you're talking about?
 
Grapevine said:
I think it depends on the knife. I find worrying too much about the percieved value of materials moves the piece too much into the realm of "art" knife instead of knife crafted by artisan.
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Again, my question pertains uniquely to knives with an initial selling price over $1,500 or $2,000. The whole art vs. artisan dichotomy is completely meaningless here.
 
Stephen F said:
Most of the knives have heard of that have cracked handles are ivory.

Stephen
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No doubt, ivory handles have cracked.
However, if a good piece of ivory in both type and quality is chosen, the handle is well constructed, the knife is stored or displayed correctly and the ivory is oiled from time to time it should only get better with age.
 
If visually you want an ivory colour (i.e. light) then its a good choice, if the design or effect required demands a darker colour then choose the most appropriate material. For me the visual aspect comes before the material choice if your talking about Art.

Premise of choosing a premium material due to its scarcity or value could be counterproductive to the creativity process.


Cheers,

Stephen
 
I quick scan of Knifelegends just posted thumbnails and around 17-18% of the knives have some kind of ivory, the other 82-83% would not be improved with ivory IMHO.... imagine that page if ALL the knives where ivory ..... would we not be asking for a different material choice?

Cheers,

Stephen
 
In my mind the materials used are secondary to the finished product. Kevin posted a superb Dean with a stag handle and I don't imagine ancient ivory would increase it's value at all. There's no doubt that there's a difference in the value of these materials in their raw forms but the value of a knife, imo, is based more on the skill and attention of the maker.

As beautiful as ivory and mother of pearl are, they also have their drawbacks. How much would these knives be worth once cracks begin to form? I once bought a very nice piece with a MOP handle from a dealer in the $4,500 range, but sent it back due to a crack around one of the pins. While there are other materials that are inherently more valuable, to deride wood and brass shows no class. How many of you guys would turn up your nose at a nice Moran with a wood handle and brass fittings? And sure enough it'll command top dollar. Not sure who this Wayne fella is but maybe he makes nice knives?
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
For folders I agree.
Maybe not for fixed blades.
It depends on the role of the knife. I own two huge Bagwell bowies.Both have wood handles. They are designed as users, but Bagwell's position in the market makes the knives worth between $1500-$2000.



Good ivory for a large fixed knife will run you 300-500, while wood is much less, on the average $35-60, so your differential would have to me much more than $100. Most makers will upcharge a bit more since there is a degree of stag or ivory that is damaged during construction and unsalvageable. Even the best stag or fossil ivory can crack.



Thats not percieved-its real. 14K is more expensive than 10K and should be priced higher-even though 10K is harder and probably better for a bolster.
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DANG!!!!! My old $500 stag handled Bagwell bowie is worth HOW MUCH? you are correct about elephant ivory. A block or a pair of good sized scales start at about $250-300. hell....leftover slab cuttings for inlay are $20 for a small slice. But i eventually want to do a hidden tang or frame handle bowie in some kind of ivory. the Straight upper hippo teeth are sounding like a good option to me for the hidden tang, but i amnot a huge fanof the "bark" fossil ivory. i want my ivory to be....well,IVORY colored. As for wood being no good,how many of Bill Moran's presentation grade knives not only had wood handles but were made out of wood that,realtively speaking,is among the cheaper knife handle materials? 90-95% of them? I have one of the last ones Billmadeand it has a maple handle and a little brass guard plate. Same thing with Bagwell knives as you said. I bet one of this Gent's Bowies with the carved blackwood handle goes for as much as one of the stag models, if not more. I'm with General Patton as far as mother of pearl goes. Suitable only for a pistol....or knife..... carried by New Orleans pimp........or guitar fretboard inlays......lol
 
Joss said:
All,

I am curious about your opinion on a question that has been on my mind for a while. Sometimes I see a wood handle on a $1,500+ knife, or a stag handle on a $2,000+ knife. I always feel that those knives should be $75 - $100 more expensive and have at least a mastodon ivory handle (or maybe pearl for small folders).

What do you think? Do you agree?
Click to expand...

In the bowie context, the price differential between premium wood and a size-appropriate piece of mastadon ivory is going to be more than $75 to $100. If you're talking a rainbow-coloured piece of mammoth ivory, the differential is going to be much more.

Overall, I can't think of too many knives in the $1.5k to $3k region that I have passed on because of inadequate handle materials. However, I can recall more than a few knives in the $500 to $1k zone that I have passed on because the maker chose to select a perfectly hum-drum piece of wood. The cost differential between average wood and presentation grade is so small that it makes me wonder why anyone chooses the former.

Another factor is that with the ivories, you are often limited by the size of the piece to using a frame handle, mortise fit or scales around a full tang. Not the bets choice on average for someone like me where significant atmoshperic changes in temperature and humidity over the course of a year can result in shrunken scales (exposing tang or frame) or a separated seam. Definitely takes a bit of the blush off a $3k bowie.

Two more points:

1) I'll take premium wood over trashy, indifferent stag any day of the week.
2) For me, a truly exceptional piece of stag is as good as any ivory. I have owned a couple examples and there isn't one of those where I would swap out for ivory even if I could.

Roger
 
When I commissioned this particular bowie with David Broadwell a few years back, I was clear on what I wished for. My vision was a subhilt with the richness and warmth of the great engraved shotguns and rifles of the hunting world. No one apologizes for the beauty of walnut on a $100k firearm, right?

He made me aware that ivory would not cost proportionately too much more. But, it would lose that color and 'look' I wanted to achieve. I also did NOT want a damascus blade. Just too much richness for one piece.

orig.jpg


It was and is easily a +$1500 piece and I make no apologies that it has wood instead of ivory.

Don Fogg was mentioned. I don't remember anything BUT wood on his knives.

As a second chance to show just how elegant wood can be on a knife here is another one was commissioned from him (by another collector) in ebony:

orig.jpg


Wood has a look, feel, warmth, and ability to be carved that we are all familiar with, and it doesn't matter that the raw material is relatively cheap to begin with. It's the end result that comprises the package. I love all my Pearce pieces like no one else. Almost every ivory piece is cracked. The one with walnut is perfecto. Hmmmmmm.....

If every knife over $1000 always had the fancy materials, I would become bored very quickly.

Coop
 
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