Handle material on very expensive knives

[Kevin Jones]

Are you serious? I think this knife would have a completely different class with ivory.

As stated previously, I like and own both ivory and stag handles knives. To me the design and style of the knife determines what handle material should be used whether wood, stag or ivory.
I would agree with Jose that this piece (EL Diablo) screams "AMBER STAG".

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Lombardo
Good ivory for a large fixed knife will run you 300-500

No - at this stage you're talking about unique specimen not your average ivory. You can find small elephant tusks on eBay for less than $300, enough for 2 full tang bowies + plenty of scales.

I have not been reluctant to pay top $ for the right wood handled piece, and this is not what I was hinting at. What I am hinting at is that when a maker invests $1,450 of work, time, expertise in a piece, they could generate disproportionately more excitement by paying $100-$150 for a set of ivory scales than $50 for super-premium ironwood.
__________________

Joss, if you can find me 10 tusks for $300 each I will buy them all and pay you a finders fee.

Good, thick Elephant Ivory sells for roughly $150-$250 a pound on the secondary market in my experience.

 

[Thor I am]

Joss, ivory anywhere on the West Coast, from what I have observed, is an invitation to disaster. You can spend whatever you want, make yourself happy, but when I go for buying mode, ivory is the last material that I find acceptable, somewhat on par with staminawood for a disqualifier. Cracking potential and lack of strength being two big issues.

Is the West Coast thing everywhere on the west coast or more in the SoCal area?

Does this include elephant ivory or only the fossilized kind?

What about fossil ivory that has been stabilized?

Thanks (and I hope these questions aren't too off topic),
Thor

 

[Kohai999]

Is the West Coast thing everywhere on the west coast or more in the SoCal area?

Does this include elephant ivory or only the fossilized kind?

What about fossil ivory that has been stabilized?

Thanks (and I hope these questions aren't too off topic),
Thor

Well, Thor, saw all ivories get flukey in Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, and yes, SoCal.

By flukey, I mean move, depending on relative humidity, and temperature.

Have been told that the most stable ivory is fossil walrus, but don't know if that is true or not.

Fossil mammoth and mastadon will often act like elephant ivory. Got a beautiful set of washed denim blue fossil ivory from a good friend, and reputable ivory dealer at Blade in 2005, and one of the scales started to curl up like a potato chip about 3 days after I got home. These are better than 3/8" thick. Sandwiched it between two pieces of 3/4" mdf and screwed them together. After about 6 months, they didn't seem to be moving any more. They are in Seattle right now, time will tell.

Another story is a highly desireable auto that my business partner got, and the fossil ivory scales curled and shrank, going from Rhode Island to Seattle. Two trips back to the maker, and we finally threw in the towel, requesting white MOP instead.

Caveat emptor, but I repeat, personally will not own it. The blue pieces are an experiment to see if it breaks my heart, but am not very optomistic.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Thor I am]

Call me dense, STeven, but I am going to repeat one of my questions:

You have seen stabilized fossil ivory do this?
(I am asking because I am having a knife made with it)

Thanks,
Thor

 

[RWS]

You have seen stabilized fossil ivory do this?

Thor

I didn't think ivory could be stabilized.

 

[Kohai999]

Call me dense, STeven, but I am going to repeat one of my questions:

You have seen stabilized fossil ivory do this?
(I am asking because I am having a knife made with it)

Thanks,
Thor

The answer is no, I have not seen it.

However, there is some real debate as to the "stability" of the treated ivory.

Makers have told me that the stuff still moves, but no one that I have spoken with said how it affects cracking.

Remember, I don't know everything, some days, I don't know anything.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Thor I am]

I didn't think ivory could be stabilized.

I didn't either until I sent a set of scales to a knifemaker who asked me if I had them stablized already?
I said "no", and he told me that it would not be a problem - he would have it done before making the knife.

Since then I have spoken with another knifemaker with whom I somehow came unto the same subject. He said that he had seen stabilized fossil ivory and thought it looked and felt magnificent.

I personally don't know if any of the knives with mammoth that I have are stabilized. One of them looks like it could be. I'll need to ask the maker at some point. I didn't buy the knife from him though and he is retired. He also might not recall.

Remember, I don't know everything, some days, I don't know anything.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

STeven, my image of you is shattered

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

"Stabilized" fossil ivory can still crack as the epoxy used to stabilize it can only go so deep into the tooth.

Allegedly, fossil walrus ivory is the least susceptible to cracking but I have seen a few pieces of it that cracked also.

The bottom line is that any natural material is unpredictable. I have seen some deep, nasty irreparable cracks in sambar stag, various ivories and stones of all kinds.
Wood too. Non stabilized or poorly stabilized wood will crack also.
I have heard good things about Moose antler. It is thick and polishes beautifully and of course sheep shorn (toenails), but they probably are at a risk of cracking also.

Hell, I have seen plenty of paper micarta with chunks out of it from being dinged and dropped...

 

[Don Hanson III]

I like wood but use mostly premium fossil ivory. I keep the ivory in my shop for at least a year before I use it. I have made well over 500 knives with ivory handles in the last 12-14 years, mostly fossil ivory but some elephant. I have only had trouble with 2 or 3 knives, which I replaced the ivory at cost. Stablilizing does help ivory but I don't use it, they're a few tricks to working and installing ivory that make a big difference down the road. As to the original question, I price my knives based on using premium ivory (or black lip pearl on folders) and will knock off $300 to $600 if wood is used. I do however prefer fossil ivory over all other handle materials. I may change my tune just a little real soon, I just got 40 blocks of killer curly Koa wood stabilized and it looks mighty good

 

[Kevin Jones]

Women: When will they ever understand?

Hey, what about fossilized walrus wiener...you know, oosic!

When I wanted another Daniel Winkler Bowie, I asked for something other than ivory because I didn't want that handle to crack, but I didn't want stag, eventhough I think stag is the quintessential handle material for a Bowie knife.

I really didn't like the look of oosic that I saw....it's porous and most of it has that pale dirty washed out walrus wiener look.

At anty rate, Dan puts the knife on hold until he comes across something that he thinks might suit me.

He contacted me and said he had found a very unusual and nice piece of oosic and that it's a little pricey. I said go for it.

This piece of naturally colored oosic is gorgeous without that overly porous look that's so common with most oosic, IMO....There's some porousness, but not a lot. This walrus must have had one heck of a sex life.

That's one of the finest Winkler's I have seen. And I have been following his work for years. He is equally talented making antiqued period pieces, primitives or high end fine dress Bowie. And of course Karen's sheaths shine right along side his knives no matter what style.

 

[Don Hanson III]

STeven, I also got some of that blue ivory from your friend at Blade 2005 and it was cut green, right out of the ground, a couple scales have curled up so bad that I can't use it. Oh and he told me it was fresh and not dry. Pretty stuff though, I'll wait a couple more years before I use any.

 

[Jose Reyes]

"Stabilized" fossil ivory can still crack as the epoxy used to stabilize it can only go so deep into the tooth.

Allegedly, fossil walrus ivory is the least susceptible to cracking but I have seen a few pieces of it that cracked also.

The bottom line is that any natural material is unpredictable. I have seen some deep, nasty irreparable cracks in sambar stag, various ivories and stones of all kinds.
Wood too. Non stabilized or poorly stabilized wood will crack also.
I have heard good things about Moose antler. It is thick and polishes beautifully and of course sheep shorn (toenails), but they probably are at a risk of cracking also.

Hell, I have seen plenty of paper micarta with chunks out of it from being dinged and dropped...

There's no material that I know of that indestructible but one of the reasons sheephorn is my favorite is because of it's toughness. I have heard of some examples "setting" and leaving a gap at the junction points but never any cracking or chipping. It really is like a thick nail, and considering the abuse it was intended to take during the life of the ram, it should stand up to normal use very well. Personally I find the outside texture appealing, just like on fossil ivory, but the core material has a nice marble or translucent quality that I also find appealing.

Micarta is also a good but it just doesn't have the same appeal of a natural material.

STeven, I also got some of that blue ivory from your friend at Blade 2005 and it was cut green, right out of the ground, a couple scales have curled up so bad that I can't use it. Oh and he told me it was fresh and not dry. Pretty stuff though, I'll wait a couple more years before I use any.

Wow, that sounds horrible. If he had waited a couple of years to cut it up would the pieces have maintained their shape? Is there any hope those pieces will straighten out?

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

I have made well over 500 knives with ivory handles in the last 12-14 years, mostly fossil ivory but some elephant. I have only had trouble with 2 or 3 knives, which I replaced the ivory at cost.

Don, how many of those were fixed blades? I know that ivory folder scales, specifically screwed together pieces seem to hold together better than ivory that has been pinned or permanently glued. You almost never see an Ivory Randall knife that is free of cracks, but see many sets of antique 1911 slab grips that look like the day they were made as they are flat and are able to move a bit on the pistols frame.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Jose, yes, this ivory would have most likely been OK if dried before cutting and I've had no luck flattening ivory scales other than grinding and these are too bowed up.

Anthony, around 80 of these knives were fixed blades but the few I had trouble with were folder scales. I've had little trouble with the fixed blades, both scales and solid handles except very slight shrinking on a few. I think the problem most makers and Randall have had with ivory, is using material that has not been dried properly. A solid elephant ivory handle (stick tang) is much more likely to crack with age than a solid fossil walrus handle.

 

[flava]

Anthony, around 80 of these knives were fixed blades but the few I had trouble with were folder scales.

Exactly what I would expect. Scales allow for less movement, and they are generally thinner.
If I was to but an ivory handled knife, it would definitely be a narrow tang construction, IMO it would hold and age better.

 

[canineforge]

Most of the knives I have heard of that have cracked handles are ivory.

Stephen

I think this is a given due to the number of ivory handled/scaled knives that are out there. But the vast majority of those problems we hear about are due to mishandling before the knife hits the streets. The way to take the 'mystery' out of that is to know the history of the ivory and the maker using the material. If I were doing a higher end fixed blade, mineralized walrus ivory would be the first choice for me (and an exceptional piece of wood would not be out of the picture). In order to insure stablity over time with ivory, though, whether you are on the 'left' or 'right' coast or up north where the heating systems have been overworked this winter, you need to know where the ivory came from, how long has it been out of the ground (cured) and how has the maker handled it during the construction of the handle/scales (overworking/overheating causes as many ivory problems as ivory that hasn't been properly cured). I don't think this is too much to ask for a high-end knife.
Yes, you need to provide a little extra care with ivory over wood in certain climates, but it is sure worth it to me to get the unique, beautiful colors mother nature provides such a piece. Just as the grain mother nature provides that right piece of wood, it renders something I am proud to own.

- Joe

 

[jdm61]

I like wood but use mostly premium fossil ivory. I keep the ivory in my shop for at least a year before I use it. I have made well over 500 knives with ivory handles in the last 12-14 years, mostly fossil ivory but some elephant. I have only had trouble with 2 or 3 knives, which I replaced the ivory at cost. Stablilizing does help ivory but I don't use it, they're a few tricks to working and installing ivory that make a big difference down the road. As to the original question, I price my knives based on using premium ivory (or black lip pearl on folders) and will knock off $300 to $600 if wood is used. I do however prefer fossil ivory over all other handle materials. I may change my tune just a little real soon, I just got 40 blocks of killer curly Koa wood stabilized and it looks mighty good

New Hawaiian koa handled model from Don Hanson III......the Luau Bowie.........or perhaps the Poi Slayer

 

[Don Hanson III]

New Hawaiian koa handled model from Don Hanson III......the Luau Bowie.........or perhaps the Poi Slayer

Ya never know what I might do next

 

[Don Hanson III]

I think this is a given due to the number of ivory handled/scaled knives that are out there. But the vast majority of those problems we hear about are due to mishandling before the knife hits the streets. The way to take the 'mystery' out of that is to know the history of the ivory and the maker using the material. If I were doing a higher end fixed blade, mineralized walrus ivory would be the first choice for me (and an exceptional piece of wood would not be out of the picture). In order to insure stablity over time with ivory, though, whether you are on the 'left' or 'right' coast or up north where the heating systems have been overworked this winter, you need to know where the ivory came from, how long has it been out of the ground (cured) and how has the maker handled it during the construction of the handle/scales (overworking/overheating causes as many ivory problems as ivory that hasn't been properly cured). I don't think this is too much to ask for a high-end knife.
Yes, you need to provide a little extra care with ivory over wood in certain climates, but it is sure worth it to me to get the unique, beautiful colors mother nature provides such a piece. Just as the grain mother nature provides that right piece of wood, it renders something I am proud to own.

- Joe

Great insight into the world of fossil ivory Joe:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: