Hands vs machines

golok

golok

Joined
Oct 20, 2000
Messages
4,453
These days in the era of mass production, machines are able to do things far beyond what the human hands can achieve.

In the knifemaking industry, we are living witnesses to the wide variety of production knives already in the market.

Somewhere in the wide, open field of things sharp, there are the dedicated knifemakers who believe that some knives are best done by hands.

It's true, hands are not calibrated like machines which can cut a sheet of metal precisely the first time everytime.

However, human hands are also the tools linked to the most powerful biological computer still existing on earth - the brain.

So in this tango of skills and possibilities, between machines and human hands, what are the standards we can expect from a hand-forged knife?

Is it even fair to compare a hand-forged knife to a machine-made knife in terms of blade performance and all-round excellence?


ge.jpg
 
It's definatelt not fair to compare.
A hand forged blade can't possibly compare to a modern technology
enhanced piece of steel.
The people that forge blades and those that love them are going to argue furiously but they're driven with fanatacism and not reason.
Does it mean a hand forged knife is inferior?
Absolutely not. There are too many other factors to consider in evaluating a knife.
Superior? That's possible on a knife by knife/knife against knife comparison.
It can go either way.
 
.
A hand forged blade can't possibly compare to a modern technology
enhanced piece of steel.

BULL ****!!!!!!




Superior? That's possible on a knife by knife/knife against knife comparison.
It can go either way.

u bring on your technologyenhanced piece of steel to a cutn comp some where i,ll show up w an ol forged blade
harley
 
Originally posted by TomW
A hand forged blade can't possibly compare to a modern technology
enhanced piece of steel.
Click to expand...

Define how you'd judge them. That's interesting. Also, do you exclude from "hand forged" such modern technologies as hi temp salt baths, etc? There can be a lot of technology those days in hand-forging (that depends who does it, of course.)

JD
 
I think that it depends on what your looking for. Everyone has different tastes. I prefer knives with character and personality. Character and personality are both by-products of things handmade. It's tough to find these qualities in something that was mass produced "cookie cutter" style. It's not impossible but it's tough.

As far as performance is concerned, it is possible to get performance out of a mass produced knife, but it's a lot easier and more likely to get it from something handmade. Here's why... Machines are set to run within certain tolerances. These tolerances will define how the knife will perform. But, you can go to someones shop, let's say Charlie Ochs' shop. You tell him you want a knife that will be able to perform a certain task, let's say you want something to take camping. He will make sure the blade geometry is correct and he will temper it so that you can thin slice tomatoes and then chop kindling without nicking the blade. I'd like to see the knife from a department store that can be as versitile.

I stand with Mr. Harley. Let's settle it at a cutting competition. I have read articles in magazines about handmade and production knives that perform well. But there is never a side by side comparison. It's probably because the production knife companies are buying advertising space in the magazine that is writing the evaluation. We wouldn't want to loose advertising dollars for the sake of the truth would we?;)

Rick
 
baumr
The questions golok asked can't simply be answered. There are too many variables. That's how I interpreted his post.
It is unfair to make a comparison. These posts pop up from time to time and just end up getting redundant by not answering questions that don't have an answer.
This vs that always end up apples vs oranges.
Speaking very basicly man can't make something by hand as perfect as with a machine. But that doesn't really answer the question "are hand made better than machine made" that has to be done on a knife by knife basis.
Cutting contests -sales gimmics however you want to interpret them don't change that.
It has to be done knife by knife and the variables still make it a no result situation.
Hand made are better than machine made "If you think so"
But I don't think so. unless????
 
TomW

OK, Let's compare apples to apples and get rid of the "variables". Let's get the highest quality "machine made" 4" hunter that either of us can find and I'll get one of Ed Fowler's 4" Hunters (Pronghorn) and we'll take them to a meat packing plant. We'll have the nonbiased employees use both knives and I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that the machine made knife will have to be sharpened multiple times before Ed's would run out of sharp.

But then if your definition of perfection is that the temper, grind, fit and finsh is exactly the same from one knife to the next, then you're absolutly correct. But then who want's that. I want performance, and that's what I'm talking about

I interpreted the original post's question of perfection to be a question of performance not consistent ergonomics. I think golok raised a very reasonable question that can be answered with two knives in a controled environment. What does anyone buy a knife for anyways?

By the way, what's unfair about making comparisons? That's what drives improvement and has helped to make america great! If nobody ever compared anything we'd still be cutting up our dinner with a chipped-up piece of a rock.:)
 
baumr
Comparisons? Did I say comparisons were unfair?
Stop taking things out of context. That's a perpetual problem in forums. Contrary to popular belief it's actually HARDER to understand something a couple words at a time.
Whole sentences ,Whole paragraphs, WHOLE posts are much easier to understand. They even begin to make sense.
I saw a guy on TV slice a tin can and then cut a hammer. then sliced a tomato WOW Does that make that a great knife?
Why would I care. Why would anybody care how a knife works in a meat packing house other than a person that works in a meat packing house.
We all buy knives for different reasons.
I don't have an opinion on a knife then look for tests to validate that opinion as you are telling me with your meat packing test.
The results of such a test are meaningless in deciding if I'd buy a knife anyway. Of course there is no need for the test since you already know the outcome.
Too many variables too prove one way or other if a hand made or knife made with the use of machines is the ultimate for me.
It is not a simple thing. Endless types of steels and forging and finishing techniques make it quite impossible to prove one is better than another in regards to me deciding on a purchase.
I'd like one of Harleys battle bowies. I mean I'd really like one and hope some day to get around to getting one.
But does it surprise you to know I don't care how it works in a meat packing plant or if it can cut a bunch of rope, chop through a board and still shave a hog?
But it's also nice to know it can?
You have any idea of what I'm talking about?
Am I the only one?
It's happened before :-)
 
I have a better idea. Send me that Pronghorn and let me test it. Always wanted to do that anyway.
 
Hi, Tom. :cool:

No, I really meant it when I said I'd love to give one a test drive.

Lord knows I've got enough other knives (forged and stock removal) to test it against.
 
I had a young man, 25 or 26, and his dad stop at my table at a show and while I was talking with the father the young fellow began examining an integral that I had there very closely. After about 15 minutes of examination the youngster said "I give up, how did you hold this thing in your CNC?". Well I had to explain that I didn't have a CNC so he asks if I have an EDM, no to that one as well. He finally gives up and asks how I did it if I didn't have high tech equipment..it was done with a grinder, files and a buffer.

The young fellow who had graduated from a technical school in 5 axis machining and was working with GM's research and development group couldn't believe the accuracy possible with low tech equipment.

The father found the situation rather humourous at the son's expense.

High tech is essential for ensuring that complex mechanical systems will fit together everytime without requiring highly skilled labour to hand tune each and every system. Skilled knifemakers enjoy that hand tuning aspect of the trade.
 
TomW,

To quote you from your most recent post...
"baumr
Comparisons? Did I say comparisons were unfair? "

Answer, yes you did...
again I quote (all context aside)...
"It is unfair to make a comparison."

To qoute Golok...
"Is it even fair to compare a hand-forged knife to a machine-made knife in terms of blade performance and all-round excellence?


Answer, why not! Again I reitterate.
"That's what drives improvement and has helped to make america great! If nobody ever compared anything we'd still be cutting up our dinner with a chipped-up piece of a rock.


It's perfectly fine if you don't want to make comparisons. You don't have to. But if people like me and golok and Mr. Harley want to, why do you feel that you have to step in and try to squelch our fun. I still think that golok asked a perfectly legitimate question that deserves a legitimate answer or debate. You seem to be more interested in the second half of golak's question regarding all around excellence. Excellence is relative, it's a matter of taste or preferences. Machines can and do create parts with tighter tolerances. If you choose only to look at fit and finish then machine made is where it's at. Some of us are genuinely interested in the performance part of the question. And, in any situation that you NEED a knife, performance is what really matters.

You asked, "why would anybody care how a knife works in a meat packing house other than a person that works in a meat packing house." Simple, It's all about performance. If I want to buy a custom knife to take hunting, I would prefer a knife that is proven. Whether in a meat packing plant or in the field it doesn't really matter, it's about performance.

Another question that you asked...I saw a guy on TV slice a tin can and then cut a hammer. then sliced a tomato WOW Does that make that a great knife? My answer is... If you're looking for a knife to do all of those things, then yes, it's a great knife. Probably not one that someone would hide away in the cupboard as part of a collection, but yes, it's a great knife for it's intended purpose. I'm guessing that it probably has the fit and finish that you like tough, because it was machine made.;)

To close, I would like to say that it's great that you have your opinion and I have mine. That's what makes these forums fun and interesting. I mearly stated my opinion which still stands.

"Is it even fair to compare a hand-forged knife to a machine-made knife in terms of blade performance and all-round excellence?" Why not? I for one want to know what's best.

Rick
 
Okay gents, let's keep it friendly in here so we can all enjoy a good discussion and differing points of view.

Thanks.
 
TomW,

It may be a loaded question Golok gave (although good and honest) but, if you're going to argue "too many variables"...

A hand forged blade can't possibly compare to a modern technology
enhanced piece of steel.
The people that forge blades and those that love them are going to argue furiously but they're driven with fanatacism and not reason.
Click to expand...

...that sounds pretty damn contradictory, not to mention rude and naive. I forge. I love forged blades. I PREFER forged blades. So, you're calling me a fanatic. Which is true actually. But it does not also label me as unreasonable.

-Jason
 
Jason
as golok mentioned hands can not do what a machine can and as much as you think you can do with hand tools what can be done with a machine
you're sounding a whole lot more like fanatical than reasonable..
So please forgers lets leave the john henry, paul bunyon, man against machine stuff where it belongs, myth.
Oh wait they lost didn't they?
 
I'd like one of Harleys battle bowies. I mean I'd really like one and hope some day to get around to getting one.
But does it surprise you to know I don't care how it works in a meat packing plant or if it can cut a bunch of rope, chop through a board and still shave a hog?
But it's also nice to know it can?
You have any idea of what I'm talking about?
Am I the only one?
It's happened before :-)



i dont guees it would surprise u if i told u that the forged ones r better knives
and that the stockremoval knives were all alike
and the mass produced ones were not as good as i make:)
harley
www.lonesomepineknives.com
 
Originally posted by Blues
Okay gents, let's keep it friendly in here so we can all enjoy a good discussion and differing points of view.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
come on blues!!!!!!
let me play:)
harley
 
Your ears must've been ringin' today, Larry. I was talkin' bout you, 'shine and boar huntin' at lunch today and here you are.

Go ahead and play, just try not to hurt anyone. ;)
 
OK. It has been said that high-tech machines can and do produce better fit and finish than is possible with handmade knives, but thats not really true. I say this because i have seen COUNTLESS, low to mid priced knives that were made by these high-tech machines with fairly sloppy fit and finish, and, conversely, i have seen many knives, completely hand made, that have nearly flawless fit and finish, fit and finish that really couldnt be improved upon, even with a machine.

So, i think that a machine may be capable of producing a certain level of fit and finish REPEATEDLY and QUICKLY, while the custom maker, in the end, can match, or even beat the fit and finish of the machines by simply spending as much time as is neccessary to work the knife until it is perfect. A (good) custom maker has the time, adequate monetary compensation, and thus desire to make something as close to perfect as is possible, that a machine does not.

So, it would seem the real advantage of machine made is speed of production, and the advantage of handmade knives is the ability to stay with it until its perfect, or as close as is humanly possible anyway.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top