Happy with 'just' a Vic

[Enkrig]

I don't necessarily think this is true, another big selling point for victorinox is affordability, there are some countries that the 25 to 40 bucks required to buy one probably represents a large portion of ones discretionary income. Forget about the money involved to buy a Leatherman or the latest super folder.

Fully agree, Wild Willie. This is precisely a point that many folks in the U.S. very much seem not to appreciate. There have a number of discussions in this forum about "Vic good enough", or "why not better steels on a SAK", and so on, and I think that final cost and that it is (relatively) inexpensive by U.S. standards is very much a big factor. For context, although it has been some time ago (maybe ~15 years ago), the situations in a number of eastern European countries were such that $25 was how much a doctor would make in a month. Imagine less "well off" folks? My point is that, even in this day and age, there are many, many folks out there to whom spending $25 on a Victorinox is a significant investment that they're unlikely do on a whim.

 

[jackknife]

I'm not saying that you in particular are a steel snob, this is a knife forum after all.



I don't necessarily disagree, but I imagine the tooling investment to properly do this is probably not worth the investment for such a relatively small market.



I don't necessarily think this is true, another big selling point for victorinox is affordability, there are some countries that the 25 to 40 bucks required to buy one probably represents a large portion of ones discretionary income. Forget about the money involved to buy a Leatherman or the latest super folder.



While I don't totally discount the versatility of modern pliers based multi tools, I used to be a hard core Leatherman guy. I broke or lost several, I only used their warranty once, because I personally couldn't expect Leatherman to pay for what I knew each and every other time was tantamount to abuse. Not to mention losing them... That hurts, I'm not saying that I don't get upset at a lost sak, but it's a lot easier to eat that than a Leatherman at 2 to 3 times the cost of replacement.



Here is where I strongly disagree... I do tree work for a living, not logging, but bucket and climbing removals/trimming, stump grinding, the works. I also help a buddy of mine quite frequently on the jobs for his earth work business. I have found a sak and a pair of dedicated pliers far more useful and durable than a multi tool. My friend doesn't even carry the pliers, just a pioneer that I sharpen for him (he's definitely not a knife guy). Those tools get used daily, I haven't carried a modern folder in almost 6 years, and it's been almost 2 since I ditched Leatherman.

I still carry a dedicated folding knife, and a sheath knife in my coat pocket, but I know for certain I COULD get by quite happily with just the pioneer and a sheath knife but that would leave me without a reason to log onto bladeforums every day and oggle what others are using.

Obviously your life and experiences are unique to you, and please don't take this as a personal affront. I think this is one of those YMMV moments that make life interesting.

Its times like this I regret that you can only like something once!!!

Y. M. M. V.

 

[Mr opinionated]

I'm not saying that you in particular are a steel snob, this is a knife forum after all.



I don't necessarily disagree, but I imagine the tooling investment to properly do this is probably not worth the investment for such a relatively small market.



I don't necessarily think this is true, another big selling point for victorinox is affordability, there are some countries that the 25 to 40 bucks required to buy one probably represents a large portion of ones discretionary income. Forget about the money involved to buy a Leatherman or the latest super folder.



While I don't totally discount the versatility of modern pliers based multi tools, I used to be a hard core Leatherman guy. I broke or lost several, I only used their warranty once, because I personally couldn't expect Leatherman to pay for what I knew each and every other time was tantamount to abuse. Not to mention losing them... That hurts, I'm not saying that I don't get upset at a lost sak, but it's a lot easier to eat that than a Leatherman at 2 to 3 times the cost of replacement.



Here is where I strongly disagree... I do tree work for a living, not logging, but bucket and climbing removals/trimming, stump grinding, the works. I also help a buddy of mine quite frequently on the jobs for his earth work business. I have found a sak and a pair of dedicated pliers far more useful and durable than a multi tool. My friend doesn't even carry the pliers, just a pioneer that I sharpen for him (he's definitely not a knife guy). Those tools get used daily, I haven't carried a modern folder in almost 6 years, and it's been almost 2 since I ditched Leatherman.

I still carry a dedicated folding knife, and a sheath knife in my coat pocket, but I know for certain I COULD get by quite happily with just the pioneer and a sheath knife but that would leave me without a reason to log onto bladeforums every day and oggle what others are using.

Obviously your life and experiences are unique to you, and please don't take this as a personal affront. I think this is one of those YMMV moments that make life interesting.

No insult taken sir. I am for one glad to meet people who disagree. The world would be boring if we all thought and agreed on every thing.
I find my Gerber suspension multi tool handy because I do labor, house remodeling, and no more heavy construction due to foot surgeries and aging. I use my 2 Suspensions hard. And I have never had one break. But I have ruined Leathermans once. And I don't like their bits being flat rectangle as opposed to standard 1/4 hex drive standard bits you buy from Home Depot. Which adds to the cost of a $120 Wave plus another $40 for 10 bits that only accept Leatherman style bits. Or another $60 for a bit adapter to convert to 1/4 hex drive bits. That part of Leatherman is what turned me off from their products. I find that greedy. Now imagine needing a bit and having to order them. or lose one and you can't use a Home Depot hex drive standard bit to suffice.

Here is something I like very well and so far has impressed me more than a SAK. Very solid build. Not as many functions. But every function has a purpose I have used often. And surprisingly comfortable in hand. There are 2 models. One is with a bit driver. The other is a wine cork remover. And don't mind the socks lol.
The Gerber Armbar.
1. pry bar / bottle opener / paint bucket lid remover.
2.Small Awl
3.Scissors
4.Screwdriver. Removable bits and Hex driver compatible with 99% of adapter screw bits from a jobsite, another screwdriver, or Home Depot hex driver bits.
5. Plain edge knife.

 

[Mr opinionated]

Fully agree, Wild Willie. This is precisely a point that many folks in the U.S. very much seem not to appreciate. There have a number of discussions in this forum about "Vic good enough", or "why not better steels on a SAK", and so on, and I think that final cost and that it is (relatively) inexpensive by U.S. standards is very much a big factor. For context, although it has been some time ago (maybe ~15 years ago), the situations in a number of eastern European countries were such that $25 was how much a doctor would make in a month. Imagine less "well off" folks? My point is that, even in this day and age, there are many, many folks out there to whom spending $25 on a Victorinox is a significant investment that they're unlikely do on a whim.

Very interesting point you made concerning affordability in other countries. I have to concur.
I still do not see though why VIC cannot use a better steel in their blades that have better edge retention since many steels today are a lot more affordable and more advanced. I just wish VIC would offer some better grade steels on a small handful of models. And I am convinced they would sell quicker than they could produce them.

Also many U.S. folk in some areas are pretty poor and live on $500 to $1000 a month in retirement or disability. And $25 is a big purchase for them when rent and bills may take 75% of their pay. I know people making $21 an hour that are barely able to pay rent, insurance, and vehicle maintenance and cannot afford food. Or some may be sleeping in their vehicles or jobsites to make ends meet to afford other stuff. Not everyone in the USA is rich or well off.

Hell I don't like to spend more than $50 on a knife. Not to mention that Victorinox is hardly poor or struggling in the world economy.
I am one of those people living on $800 a month. If I want a nice more expensive product. I have to save my money, buy a cheaper alternative, go in debt, or go without.

 

[Enkrig]

Very interesting point you made concerning affordability in other countries. I have to concur.
I still do not see though why VIC cannot use a better steel in their blades that have better edge retention since many steels today are a lot more affordable and more advanced. I just wish VIC would offer some better grade steels on a small handful of models. And I am convinced they would sell quicker than they could produce them.

Also many U.S. folk in some areas are pretty poor and live on $500 to $1000 a month in retirement or disability. And $25 is a big purchase for them when rent and bills may take 75% of their pay. I know people making $21 an hour that are barely able to pay rent, insurance, and vehicle maintenance and cannot afford food. Or some may be sleeping in their vehicles or jobsites to make ends meet to afford other stuff. Not everyone in the USA is rich or well off.

Hell I don't like to spend more than $50 on a knife. Not to mention that Victorinox is hardly poor or struggling in the world economy.
I am one of those people living on $800 a month. If I want a nice more expensive product. I have to save my money, buy a cheaper alternative, go in debt, or go without.

If you agree on the point about affordability, then I believe the other facet to answer your question lies in what Wild Willie said (and others concurred) regarding the cost of tooling (and marketing and logistical management) to make those said parts. The market for a more expensive SAK with better blade steel is a small fraction of their general market, so I'm sure they've looked at the number and determined that the return on investment is lower than if they dedicate their money, time, and energy on other ventures. Consider this, have you wondered why do they discontinue certain models from time to time? Is it that they don't make money on them? I think that it is because maybe they require special parts that require switching the machines (time is money), or occupy entire machines that can be used for making something else, or inventory bookkeeping and other "logistical loads". By discontinuing those, they free all that so that they may offer some other product or focus other tools that they sell more of.

I must admit that there is a wrinkle in this argument, however. Although rare, they do offer Vics with very special tools. For example, Vics with a damascus blade, etc. I wonder how they manage those? Maybe they choose the damascus to be such that it can be machined with the same equipment and, for that special edition, they send it elsewhere for the special heat treatment...? In any event, you also see why those end up costing 5-10x more than a standard SAK, even thought only one "small" thing is changed.

 

[Mr opinionated]

If you agree on the point about affordability, then I believe the other facet to answer your question lies in what Wild Willie said (and others concurred) regarding the cost of tooling (and marketing and logistical management) to make those said parts. The market for a more expensive SAK with better blade steel is a small fraction of their general market, so I'm sure they've looked at the number and determined that the return on investment is lower than if they dedicate their money, time, and energy on other ventures. Consider this, have you wondered why do they discontinue certain models from time to time? Is it that they don't make money on them? I think that it is because maybe they require special parts that require switching the machines (time is money), or occupy entire machines that can be used for making something else, or inventory bookkeeping and other "logistical loads". By discontinuing those, they free all that so that they may offer some other product or focus other tools that they sell more of.

I must admit that there is a wrinkle in this argument, however. Although rare, they do offer Vics with very special tools. For example, Vics with a damascus blade, etc. I wonder how they manage those? Maybe they choose the damascus to be such that it can be machined with the same equipment and, for that special edition, they send it elsewhere for the special heat treatment...? In any event, you also see why those end up costing 5-10x more than a standard SAK, even thought only one "small" thing is changed.

I went on EBAY last night looking for vintage SAKS and I was very surprised with what I saw. Some of their older knives used different steels or had functions such as a standard watch inlaid in the handle.
And yes it was pretty expensive I must admit.

And yes I do get changing machinery around for small batches can be very expensive.
My thinking and logic was a bit flawed and unexplained. I was thinking take the SAK model champ for example.
Keep the same blade mold and stamping. Add some damascus or Wootz steel. Micarta scales,
Number the pieces 1 - 5000 and sell them as limited edition pieces.

My logic on this was using Cold Steel for an example.
Take their Voyager for example. They released a Lynn Thompson collector piece limited to say 2000.
But yeah now that I think about it. Maybe there is too much cost or lack of demand for VIC to make such pieces.
Since there is a huge aftermarket for scales and mods made by other people and companies.

At any rate I do not want you to think I dislike VIC.
My very first knife was a VIC Swiss Champ when I was 6 or 7 years old.

 

[Enkrig]

And yes I do get changing machinery around for small batches can be very expensive.
My thinking and logic was a bit flawed and unexplained. I was thinking for example that take the champ for example.
keep the same blade mold and stamping. Add some damascus or Wootz steel. Micarta scales,
Number the pieces 1 - 5000 and sell them as limited edition pieces.

My logic on this was using Cold Steel for an example.
Take their Voyager for example. And they released a Lynn Thompson collector piece limited to say 2000.
But yeah now that I think about it. Maybe there is too much cost or lack of demand for VIC to make such pieces.
Since there is a huge aftermarket for scales and mods made by other people and companies.

As I've said, they do special editions and releases. Rarely but they do occur. If that's what you are interested in, then it is simply a matter of being patient (and maybe subscribe to a newsletter in their website). YMMV but you can also make a suggestion in their website.

At any rate I do not want you to think I dislike VIC.
My very first knife was a VIC Swiss Champ when I was 6 or 7 years old.

I surely did not get that perspective. We're having, I believe, a respectful and interesting discussion on our points of view. Something seemingly quite refreshing these days...

 

[mnblade]

... they are legal in knife restrictive countries such as Europe. Which do not even allow a Buck 110.

Not all European countries have restrictive knife regs. I live in the Czech Republic and shops here sell all sorts of large, one-hander folding tactical knives. Some even carry Bucks, including the 110. It's rather common to see a tell-tale pocketclip, or belt pouch.

And the second reason would be because of MacGyver TV show in the 1980's that gave them a huge name.

I've never met a European who's even heard of MacGyver.

Even the cheapest $9 Ozark Trail multi tool is more useful, durable, and functional than any SAK.

 

[Enkrig]

I've never met a European who's even heard of MacGyver.

As an European (grew up in Europe), I have to call you out because this is totally not true! I have very fond memories about watching MacGyver on Sunday nights and me and grandfather used to have fun talking about it. My grandfather even tried a couple of the things we saw on the episodes.

 

[Mr opinionated]

As an European (grew up in Europe), I have to call you out because this is totally not true! I have very fond memories about watching MacGyver on Sunday nights and me and grandfather used to have fun talking about it. My grandfather even tried a couple of the things we saw on the episodes.

I am guilty of trying to make a bazooka out of a muffler, cotton wadding, and some gas. Luckily my dad caught me and put that idea to a stop. And threatened to ban MacGyver from the household TV lol.

 

[Mr opinionated]

Not all European countries have restrictive knife regs. I live in the Czech Republic and shops here sell all sorts of large, one-hander folding tactical knives. Some even carry Bucks, including the 110. It's rather common to see a tell-tale pocketclip, or belt pouch.

OK I will give you that and admit I should not have labeled all of Europe as very knife restrictive. But 70% of Europe has very restrictive knife laws. There is no denying that.

I've never met a European who's even heard of MacGyver.

Yeah right lol. MacGyver was well known in Europe during the 1980's. That's like saying I never heard or Princess Diana (R.I.P. Princess) or DR WHO just because I am from the USA. MacGyver in the USA helped make SAK'S a household name and more popular. Many kids I went to school with owned a SAK because of that TV show.

Sorry but in my uses a Multi tool has been more durable and versatile. And capable of harder work. I won't say they cannot be broken. Anything can fail due to bad heat treat or gross misuse. But compare 8 ounces of steel to 2 to 3 ounces of thin sheet metal, thin steel, and plastic liners and tell me which one is more durable and less likely to break when used properly on an every day basis. Over a period of years.

 

[mnblade]

Yeah right lol. MacGyver was well known in Europe during the 1980's.

The country I've lived in since 1993 was behind the Iron Curtain in the 80s, which could explain why I've never met anyone who knew of that show.

 

[Mr opinionated]

The country I've lived in since 1993 was behind the Iron Curtain in the 80s, which could explain why I've never met anyone who knew of that show.

Please forgive my ignorance about forgetting the Iron Wall.
I remember as a kid during the 1980's in the USA. That it was near impossible to find or buy anything from Russia.
No explanation needed sir. And apologies on my end for forgetting that period of history.
I remember there was no EBAY or social media also. Communication was a lot more limited.
I am sorry if I caused embarrassment to you. That was not my intention. But nonetheless. Rude of myself to assume your life experiences without thinking of the time and period.

Do check out MacGyver if you get the chance.