Hard solder question

jdm61

jdm61

itinerant metal pounder
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Messages
47,357
Okay, guys. What exactly is hard solder? Welding supply guys have no clue what I am talking about. Is there a common name for this stuff that everyone other taj knifemakers use? LOL
 
talk to Jewlers....

welders don't do solder, they Braze

you could maybe ask them for Brazing rod in the temp rang your wanting (the higher the temp the harder the solder)

Stacy would be a good one to ask here
 
Joe, you are probably referring to the difference between lo temp solder and high temp solder.
The low temp is designed to flow at around 400 degrees, which works well for a lot of makers and is easily accomplished with a small propane torch.
The high temp silver solders start melting around 1100+ degrees and work good for attaching pins to butt caps, maybe attaching threaded rod to tangs, etc.
A lot stronger than the low temp stuff.
 
If your talking about the stuff that you would use to weld your brass hilt to a steel tang,,, I recommend 45% silver with flux paste.

Harris Welding supplies good stuff, been using it for years to weld disimilar metal and shit like that. GREAT WEBSITE tons of info, though focused on their products. The Techies there really know there stuff, give em a call. Or internet chat them.
 
The best solders for our purposes will melt at temperatures lower than
those we use for tempering.
What I've been using since the mid "70s is Harris StayBrite solder. The
acid flux that comes with the kit, however, isn't quite as good as
the pink flux that Koval/Jantz had (have..?).
 
The answers to your question can be all over the map, depending on the context of the question. Can you give us more to go on? What's your application? As mentioned, in the jewelry realm solders are often graded by hardness, which also "translates" to flow point or melting temperature ranges. For instance, solders for silver work often come in easy (EZ), soft, medium and hard. Hard flows the closest to sterling's flow point while EZ is the furthest away, Hards the strongest and "whitest or silverest."
 
I'm trying to solder a stainless nut to a 416 buttcap. i have heard people talk about solder flowing at 1100, but the cahrts that the guy had at the welding supply store said that most of that high silver content solder was liquid at more like 1250-1350. My concern is that I don't know the temp at which 416 goes non-magnetic.
 
Think your talking about sil-phos or brazing solder, same stuff we used in HVAC to solder copper lines together. Comes in differant grades of silver content, %18 silver is what I like.
 
As a goldsmith I use 3 grades of silver solder, hard, medium, and easy. The idea is that you do your first joints in the highest temperature solder you have, if you need to work within the circle of heat transmission effect, yo work with the next lower temp solder so you don't mess up your first joint, then to the lowest grade.Hard solder from Rio melts at 1365 f, and flows at 1450, medium melts at 1275, flows at 1360, easy melts at 1240, flows at 1325, and they sell an extra easy that is wretched stuff so I don't use it, it melts at 1145 and flows at 1207, Usually when someone says hard solder they mean jewelers silver solder rather than "soft" solders like staybrite and 60/40. I have never tried sil-phos,
if you're just soldering to a buttcap does it matter if you heat it above curie point? (should be pretty close to 1412, 1413 regardless of alloy if I understand correctly)

-Page
 
sunshadow said:
As a goldsmith I use 3 grades of silver solder, hard, medium, and easy. The idea is that you do your first joints in the highest temperature solder you have, if you need to work within the circle of heat transmission effect, yo work with the next lower temp solder so you don't mess up your first joint, then to the lowest grade.Hard solder from Rio melts at 1365 f, and flows at 1450, medium melts at 1275, flows at 1360, easy melts at 1240, flows at 1325, and they sell an extra easy that is wretched stuff so I don't use it, it melts at 1145 and flows at 1207, Usually when someone says hard solder they mean jewelers silver solder rather than "soft" solders like staybrite and 60/40. I have never tried sil-phos,
if you're just soldering to a buttcap does it matter if you heat it above curie point? (should be pretty close to 1412, 1413 regardless of alloy if I understand correctly)

-Page
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I don't know if it matters, but I do have to do a lot of filing on the buttcap after I get the nut soldered up.
 
jdm61 said:
I don't know if it matters, but I do have to do a lot of filing on the buttcap after I get the nut soldered up.
Click to expand...

I do not know anything about the air hardening or annealing possibilities of 416, I could talk your ear off at this point about U718, but that's not steel, it's superalloy :D

I do not play with stainless, Mete? . . . Buehler?

-Page
 
As bill said above its called "silver Braze" , clean (hand sand) the nut and buttcap and then either tin the pommel and apply flux to the nut or flux both and put a small chunk of the silver brazing alloy in the nut,heat until you see a bright silver line between the nut and pommel-done almost zero clean up. This is best accomplished with acetelyene.
Ken.
 
kc custom said:
As bill said above its called "silver Braze" , clean (hand sand) the nut and buttcap and then either tin the pommel and apply flux to the nut or flux both and put a small chunk of the silver brazing alloy in the nut,heat until you see a bright silver line between the nut and pommel-done almost zero clean up. This is best accomplished with acetelyene.
Ken.
Click to expand...
Thank you, guys. I don't have an acetelyene rig will propane or MAP/oxygen do the trick on small parts?
 
Joe back when I didn't have acetelyene I used to use 2 propane torches one from either direction and it worked ok, not great but ok. Mapp oxygen should definitley work on small parts.
Ken.
 
kc custom said:
Joe back when I didn't have acetelyene I used to use 2 propane torches one from either direction and it worked ok, not great but ok. Mapp oxygen should definitley work on small parts.
Ken.
Click to expand...
Cool..... I bought one of those small MAP/O2 plumbers rigs when I first started out to do edge quenching, but I could never get big blades hot enough. Now I actually have a use for it:thumbup:
 
Silver brazing ( silver soldering) only requires the metal to be heated to around 1200F. Overheating is the enemy of any good solder joint. The proper flux is required ( and the flux for soft solder is not the same or usable for hard soldering). Use the smallest torch that is capable of heating the joint properly. Clean everything well. Smoothly sanded/filed surfaces are required.

It is called solder, even though it has nothing to do with those lead or tin alloys used to install guards , put pipes together,and do electronics. The word means " to make solid" and is applied to any eutectic alloy that melts at a low enough temperature to bond similar metals together.

The term soldering actually refers to any process using heat and a metallic bonding alloy between 400F and 800F. At 800F to 1400F it is called brazing. At 1400F to 1800F it is called braze welding. If there is silver in the alloy it is called "silver" soldering/brazing.

In jewelery work the solders are make of the same metal being worked on, thus gold solder is an alloy of gold that melts a little below the melting point of the gold being "soldered". It is more like brazing or welding. The silver solders range from 50% to 80% silver. Gold solders are the same karat as the work ( 14 karat = 58.5% gold), just melting from 50-100 degrees lower.

The "silver braze" from the welding supply is the type of silver alloy used to bond steel and brass. It is silver bearing, but not to the percentage as jewelery solders. The silver content of silver brazes runs from 18% to 40%, IIRC. The rest is brass of some type.

Stacy
 
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I use oxy/propane for my jewelers torches
you can use soft firebrick as a heat reflector if your torch isn't quite strong enough
-Page
 
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