"Hard use" Vs Abuse... working definitions

timberweasel said:
To me, 'hard-use' has more to do with the frequency in which a particular tool is used. I might cut up the occasional cardboard box with my EDC so it can fit in the recycling box, but a shipper/receiver might have to cut cardboard all day long, five days a week. A butcher or chef will use their knives a lot harder at work than I do preparing my own meals at home. The folks who truly use their knives 'hard' are the ones who will reap the benefits of super-steels and will experience more of a pronounced difference: edge-retention, wear/corrosion resistance, etc.

In my mind, 'abuse' is using a particular tool for anything outside the realm of its intended function (which may lead to damaging the tool itself or the material it is used on.) I'd consider it 'abuse' to use a flat-head driver on a Phillips screw--it can be done, but it is not recommended. Same thing with knives. Baton with a Becker BK-2? Sure, why not. Baton with an Al Mar Eagle? Not a good idea. You may get away with abusing a knife for a while, but sooner or later failure will result.

Anyway, that's my two-cents... :o
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Agree with this. I use my knife all day long cutting cardboard, tape, plastic wrap, zip ties, twine, ect in a warehouse job and I consider it hard use.
 
unit said:
I do not mean to cause a stir or agitate anyone, but what is the fascination with defining these terms?

Simply put, the answer is ALWAYS, "it depends".

"Use" for a heavy duty survival knife (i.e. the sharpened prybar) will often constitute "abuse" for a small slip joint. Everything in between is a point that needs to be considered independently.

I suppose a very interested party could devise a list of knives and propose a list of duties that constitute use and abuse for each, but what would be the purpose for such a list?

What I have learned over the years is a keener understanding of the duties that would be suitable for the tool I happen to have available. Anything beyond those duties might cause damage...then I have to decide what is really important. Labeling it as "abuse" or "use" is immaterial when you take responsibility for your own actions.

When you believe you are acting responsibly and something breaks, consult the manufacture. Notice I said consult (not demand) and manufacturer (not public forums)?
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Good post :thumbup:

My take is- if you're using a knife and you think something bad might happen, or that it might not be the right tool for the job. You're probably right.

I was going to say use common sense, but I think that has as many definitions as *hard use/abuse* does. :D
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
This is what it means to me...

Hard Use: Use of the knife up to or near the limits of what stresses the knife can handle without significant damage. Insignificant damage is cosmetic or easily repaired with minor effort (like a dulled edge.)

Abuse: Use of the knife beyond what the knife can handle without taking significant damage. Significant damage is any damage that is not easily repaired and/or causes loss of or diminishes function.

Naturally what constitutes as either is going to depend on the knife in question. The key with this approach is that it considers the specific knife in question first, and then evaluates tasks based on the design and build of that knife, rather than deciding first that a task is inappropriate for ANY knife.
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Nicely said.:thumbup:
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
This is what it means to me...

Hard Use: Use of the knife up to or near the limits of what stresses the knife can handle without significant damage. Insignificant damage is cosmetic or easily repaired with minor effort (like a dulled edge.)
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I dulled my para 2 cutting grilled pork chops on a plate. Must have been some hard use. ;)
 
yablanowitz said:
My "definitions" are actually quite simple. Ask yourself "Would I do that with a knife that cost as much as my car?" If the answer is "Yes", it's use. If the answer is "Only if I absolutely had to", it's hard use. If the answer is "No", it's abuse.
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I laughed at this, but I have to agree with you totally!
 
singularity35 said:
I dulled my para 2 cutting grilled pork chops on a plate. Must have been some hard use. ;)
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It's basically the same as sawing your edge into a rock, so it actually kind of is! That's also precisely why steak knives commonly have serrations near the tip, where the edge is most likely to contact the plate. The points of the serrations dull on the plate while the interior of the serration remains sharp. A wharncliffe would be a better choice for a steak knife, as only the point would make contact with the plate and be easily re-established by using a stone on the spine at the tip.;)
 
I need to ask - what are you driving??? :confused: :D

yablanowitz said:
My "definitions" are actually quite simple. Ask yourself "Would I do that with a knife that cost as much as my car?" If the answer is "Yes", it's use. If the answer is "Only if I absolutely had to", it's hard use. If the answer is "No", it's abuse.
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What is there to gain from defining all the specific ways to abuse a knife?

All that matters is that you don't break it and that you keep it sharp. I have followed that basic law my entire life, and to my best recollection, I have never broken a knife.

I have pried and done other things that many SAY is abusive, yet my knives are all fine. There are no broken blades, tips, or locks in my collection. If you take the time to feel-out your knife, you should be able to grasp its limitations. Know your knife, and you will know how to keep it in good working shape.
 
Sounds more like hard plastic then! By dulling in definition I mean rapid edge degradation such as what a knife experiences when piercing or cutting soft metal, fiberglass, hard and/or reinforced plastics, carpet, or making repeated cuts through cardboard. So I guess some additional parameters were in order.
 
There's a fine line between hard use and abuse , so I think it all boils down to common sense regarding the tool you're using to do the job.
 
Unlike some answers in this thread I think Hard Use and Abuse should be applied to all blades equally, however not all blades are meant for abuse or even hard use, some handle hard use better than others.

Hard Use: Cutting difficult to cut material, such as wire, sheet rock, hard wood, card board etc. where a knife will be dulled quickly and likely scratched. (this doesn't include concrete, steel pipe, bricks, etc) Because a knife is a tool for cutting things, using it hard means cutting hard things, that even a shaving sharp blade can't just glide through. Obviously this could include things things that could damage a knife like a Phil Wilson South Fork, but I wouldn't consider it a hard use knife, which is a knife thats giving up cutting ability to be stronger laterally. (Also by cutting I mean cutting with just the knife, not cutting through something using the force of a 3lb steel mallet)

Abuse: Using a knife for anything a different tool should be used for. For example, prying things? Use a prybar, it will work better and is much less likely to be damaged, hammering things? Instead of using the back of the blade,or pomel use a hammer, or rock even. Splitting wood? Use an axe or stout fixed blade instead of the folder.

Some knives are meant to excel in cutting, for example the South Fork, High end kitchen knives, Thin ground, high hardness steels, and aren't meant for hard use or abuse.

Some give up cutting ability, for strength: Many cold steel Folders, Manix 2, Striders, ZTs, etc., Strong folders, and medium duty fixed blades.

Some knives give up a lot of cutting ability so that they can be abused: Busse, Scrapyard, ESEE RC-5, basically anything over .25" thick, in this category I'd say only .25" thick fixed blades can be placed.


Bottom line: If there is a different tool that you should be doing the job with (Hammer, pry bar, Axe, wedge, screwdriver) its probably abuse.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Sounds more like hard plastic then! By dulling in definition I mean rapid edge degradation such as what a knife experiences when piercing or cutting soft metal, fiberglass, hard and/or reinforced plastics, carpet, or making repeated cuts through cardboard. So I guess some additional parameters were in order.
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Yep, I even got some rolling and some chipping that didn't come out with 20 plus minutes on the brown rods. It was the hard plastic plates. The kind that can break.
 
Noctis3880 said:
Abuse = Whatever isn't covered by the knife's warranty:thumbup:.
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What kind of bass-akwards thinking is that? Warranty generally covers "DEFECTS IN MATERIALS AND WORKMANSHIP"... Most warranty's explicitly refuse coverage for "wear and tear" caused by normal use... I see folks chiming in in agreement and I'm more than a little surprised. Think bigger thoughts!

IMHO "abuse" speaks to intent, nothing else. Sometimes hard use can cross the line into the ridiculous, but if your simple intent is to accomplish the necessary task at hand, then so be it... The minute you say to yourself "I'm gonna see how many hard stabs into _______, and twist-outs my Busse Fat Dogfather can survive...," you've crossed the line into abuse... I don't really care if you are hard stabbing and twisting out of tissue paper, or a brick wall, if your intent is to break your knife (or find its point of failure, in and of itself), then you are abusing it. If your intent is to accomplish a task set before you, you may be foolish in your choice of tools, but... sometimes the right tool for the job is the tool you have on you at the time... And just about everybody here will have a knife on them, at the time. :)
 
It really depends on the knife in question and what it was designed for as there is a fine line between Hard Use and Abuse.

If a knife is designed for Hard Use then it should be able to take a certian amount of what people call Abuse and still be usable with little or no damage.

Some knives are designed to take Abuse, but they are usually very heavy and beefed up so they can take it.

In the end it depends on both the knife, what it was designed for and the end user and how they are planning to use the knife or knives in question.
 
ohmyheckinslc said:
What kind of bass-akwards thinking is that? Warranty generally covers "DEFECTS IN MATERIALS AND WORKMANSHIP"... Most warranty's explicitly refuse coverage for "wear and tear" caused by normal use... I see folks chiming in in agreement and I'm more than a little surprised. Think bigger thoughts!
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I see your point. My thinking was based on the fact that some manufacturers will specifically promote their knives as being designed for extremely hard use. And I would have assumed that if one of those knives broke during such specified hard use, that the manufacturer would stand behind their marketing and replace the broken knife, even if that breakage were not the result of defect. However, you have reminded me that sometimes manufacturers will say one thing to promote their knives but their warranties will say something altogether different. Based on this review of my thinking, I agree that a manufacturers warranty should not automatically be considered the sole measure of what type of hard use a particular knife could or should be used for. And I thank you for inspiring me to look at my position from a different angle.
 
killgar said:
I see your point. My thinking was based on the fact that some manufacturers will specifically promote their knives as being designed for extremely hard use. And I would have assumed that if one of those knives broke during such specified hard use, that the manufacturer would stand behind their marketing and replace the broken knife, even if that breakage were not the result of defect. However, you have reminded me that sometimes manufacturers will say one thing to promote their knives but their warranties will say something altogether different. Based on this review of my thinking, I agree that a manufacturers warranty should not automatically be considered the sole measure of what type of hard use a particular knife could or should be used for. And I thank you for inspiring me to look at my position from a different angle.
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Whoa... :)
 
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