Hardening a blade and what a maker's goal is

bodog

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I hope the mods find this thread acceptable here. Normally I'd post something like this in shop talk but I think it may be really helpful for people to see what a heat treatment does and what the difference is between someone like Peter's heat treating and someone like Benchmade, Spyderco, or KAI.

Without getting too in depth, is there a knowledgable maker that can go into a little bit about the process of heat treating a piece of steel and what each step is supposed to be doing?

And can can it be broken down into stainless vs high alloy tool steels vs basic high carbon low alloy steel?

Can someone break down what cementite, pearlite, austenite, and martensite are and why they'd be beneficial or harmful?

Once you're past .6% carbon and you're going into high carbon steels, what forms in the blade at each stage?

And what is a secondary hardening?

What does cryo treatment do to a blade? Do big manufacturers perform this step? Is it even that important?

What causes a blade to keep its shape at the thinnest part of the apex?

I'm not asking for a book but these are concepts that I think would help get us knife geeks on the same page. I'm familiar with some of these parts and dumb on others, maybe others are familiar with other parts.

Thank you for taking the time to put some of this stuff down for us ignorant people :)
 
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Are you asking or are you looking for an opportunity to lecture? Just so things are clear from the start.
 
The answer to all of these questions is just about a book, even though you're not asking for one....

I am not sure getting this "in depth" into blade steel is going to help anyone in this sub-forum.

Perhaps a question like "How does a certain HRC effect X steels performance" would have been a lot more useful to everyone and easier to digest.....this is metallurgy class.....and I have a feeling you know the answer to all of your questions anyway.....
 
Are you asking or are you looking for an opportunity to lecture? Just so things are clear from the start.

No, some of the stuff I have no idea about. I was thinking that maybe these are questions that others have, too. It's not easy to find a readers digest version of this stuff.
 
The answer to all of these questions is just about a book, even though you're not asking for one....

I am not sure getting this "in depth" into blade steel is going to help anyone in this sub-forum.

Perhaps a question like "How does a certain HRC effect X steels performance" would have been a lot more useful to everyone and easier to digest.....this is metallurgy class.....and I have a feeling you know the answer to all of your questions anyway.....

Yeah, that's what I'm kind of trying to avoid. There's potential to go WAAAYY over the heads of many people. I'm just hoping someone who knows how to keep this stuff fairly simple can put it into an easy to digest post so people who don't know can up their game too.

There's a big difference between the heat treatments of someone like Phil Wilson and Cold Steel. My basic question is "why does it matter?" I'm trying to play the part of someone who doesn't care simply because he doesn't know.

Anyway, I'd like to ask you something off line. You down for an evaluation of a knife? If so, how do I get ahold of you?
 
Without getting too in depth, is there a knowledgable maker that can go into a little bit about the process of heat treating a piece of steel and what each step is supposed to be doing?
in the makers' forum, they will tell the basics of quenching/hardening, tempering, stabilizing, etc. better to hear it from someone with working knowledge.

And can can it be broken down into stainless vs high alloy tool steels vs basic high carbon low alloy steel?
the "high alloy" group is rather vague although "stainless" is usually sub-grouped with it.

Can someone break down what cementite, pearlite, austenite, and martensite are and why they'd be beneficial or harmful?
those are varieties of iron carbide Fe3C. they form with varying temperatures to which the steel is subjected and there is carbon introduced into the system. carbides are beneficial because steel alone (Fe with lattice or interstitial carbon) cannot hold more than 0.1% carbon at room termperature. carbides need to form to bring total carbon content to at least 0.5% where you begin having "knife" qualities such as hardness (to allow sharpening) and toughness (to avoid deformation.) martensite is the most desirable carbide for the edge as cementite and pearlite cannot provide the two qualities i mentioned. austenite is the highest temperature variety but is not as desirable as martensite.

the trouble with martensite is it's a very short phase. it doesn't even appear in a carbon-temperature graph. you can produce it in two ways: through rapid quenching when you are at the austenite phase, or subjecting the steel to sudden high pressure at room temperature.

Once you're past .6% carbon and you're going into high carbon steels, what forms in the blade at each stage?

And what is a secondary hardening?

What does cryo treatment do to a blade? Do big manufacturers perform this step? Is it even that important?

What causes a blade to keep its shape at the thinnest part of the apex?

I'm not asking for a book but these are concepts that I think would help get us knife geeks on the same page. I'm familiar with some of these parts and dumb on others, maybe others are familiar with other parts.

Thank you for taking the time to put some of this stuff down for us ignorant people :)

again, a tradesman can best answer you. as many suggest, nothing beats good old textbook reading. however, you can't ignore the abundance and accessibility of expertise and knowledge in message board. it's ok to ask around. i do it all the time.
 
I dont really feel there is a cliffs note's version of the information you are requesting. Every single aspect of knifemaking from the raw materials to the finished product is flooded with opinion. So even if you had two experts with degrees in metallurgy, engineering and manufacturing you will likely find they wont agree on many of the aspects of knifemaking. And its such an insurmountable task to try and put it in small words that I fear it wont be very fruitful. But as someone who struggles with this aspect of understanding knives I would applaud the effort if it could be explained. It just seems like there isnt a whole lot of information that can be applied with a broad brushstroke. With so many alloys and so many different ways those individual alloys behave it is going to be hard to speak in general terms and have it apply to most metals.
 
I thought this was a pretty decent, short and sweet explanation of a couple of the questions:

"Tempering of Tool Steel

Once a tool has been hardened, it is brittle and must be tempered before using it. Tempering is the process of reheating a tool after it has been heat treated. This reheating serves many functions. It is the method of attaining the proper hardness in the tool, relieving the stress from the hardening process and transforming any retained austenite to martensite.

Tempering is the process of reheating tool steel. This reheating is done at a low temperature range, usually from 300 to 1100 degrees F, depending on the steel grade and final desired hardness. The tempering cycle should be one hour per inch of cross section and a minimum of two hours. Since the tempering temperature is relatively low, no protection from decarburization is necessary.

The primary purpose of tempering is to relieve the stress that was induced during the austenizing and subsequent quenching processes. Stress is also introduced during the initial machining stages. This is especially true for asymmetrical or heavily machined tools. The tool is under tremendous stress and would likely crack while in service. Even an untempered tool could crack if it is allowed to cool to room temperature. Tempering should be performed before the tool cools to room temperature after quenching.

Typical tempering furnace for tool steel in the tool and die industry Another reason for tempering the tool is to attain the final desired hardness. Usually the end-user of the tool will require that the tool has a desired hardness range. This hardness is attained by tempering the tool. When tempering, the highest possible tempering temperature should be used. By tempering at the highest temperature to attain the proper hardness range, more retained austenite will transform to martensite. Martensite is less brittle than austenite.

Transforming any retained austenite to martensite is the third reason for tempering. After hardening the tool, as much as 15% retained austenite may be present in the tool. This retained austenite should be transformed into the desirable martensite. A properly hardened and tempered tool should have less than 5% retained austenite. By raising the temperature of the tool and cooling to room temperature, this transformation takes place.

A tool steel with high alloy content may have secondary hardening occur. Secondary hardening is the transformation of retained austenite to martensite causing an increase in hardness. This frequently occurs in high alloy tool and high speed steels due to precipitation of carbides during the tempering process. High alloy grades of tool steel may require three or four tempering cycles for complete transformation.
It should be noted that the tool must be allowed to cool to room temperature between tempers. If the tool is not allowed to cool to room temperature between tempers then the tool has not completed the tempering cycle.

You may want to look at the optional but sometimes beneficial process of Cryogenic Treatment."

.http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/heat-treating-tempering-tool-steel.html
 
And this:

"Cryogenic Treatment of Tool Steel


Cryogenic treatment is an optional part of the heat treating process. It is the deep-freezing of tool steel usually to –250 to –300 degrees F for 2-3 hours. The purpose of the cryogenic treatment is to stabilize the microstructure of the tool steel.

Just as retained austenite is transformed to martensite during the tempering process, the same change occurs during the cryogenic treatment. Some grades of tool steel with high alloy content and low tempering temperatures will not completely transform to a martensitic structure during a thermal tempering process.

A-2 and D-2 are two common grades that may benefit from a cryogenic treatment. These two grades are commonly tempered at temperatures as low as 300 degrees F. The complete transformation to martensite provides for a stable structure meaning that there would be minimal size change during further processing. One to two points higher hardness may be attained due to more of the alloy content being transformed in low temperature tempering grades.

Grades of tool steel with high tempering temperatures usually have more of the retained austenite transformed to martensite during the tempering process thus reducing the effectiveness of the cryogenic treatment. If a cryogenic treatment is performed on a grade of tool steel with a high tempering temperature then the tempering temperature should be lowered 50 to 100 degrees F. There usually is very little or no increase in hardness in these grades.

It is recommended that one thermal temper cycle is performed on the tool before a cryogenic treatment is performed. Since the newly hardened and quenched tool is brittle, tempering prior to cryogenic treatment will reduce the chance of cracking due to stress induced during the process. At least one thermal tempering cycle should follow the cryogenic treatment in order to temper the newly formed martensite resulting from the cryogenic treatment."

http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/heat-treating-cryogenic-treatment.html
 
And some common terms that get used quite often:

A brief look at some of the common tool steel terminology used.

Abrasive Wear – The loss of material due to hard particles moving against and reducing softer particles.

Adhesive Wear – The displacement of material resulting from two materials sliding against one another while under pressure then being redeposited on the other surface leaving pits and surface projections. Also known as galling.

Alloy – A material that is dissolved into another metal in a solid solution. Also, a material that results when two or more elements combine in a solid solution.

Annealing – Refers to the heating and controlled cooling of steel for the purpose of removing stresses, softening, refining its structure or changing its ductility.

Austenite – The metallic non-magnetic solid solution of steel. This phase is achieved by heating the steel to above its critical transformation temperature to dissolve the alloying elements into the iron matrix.

Billet – A solid semi-finished round or square ingot that has been hot-worked by forging or rolling.

Breakage – Refers to the premature failure of a tool by cracking, complete failure of the tool, unrepairable.

Carbide – A chemical compound combining carbon and another metallic element, normally produced for the purpose of providing wear resistance in steels, such as vanadium carbide or chromium carbide.

Charpy V-notch test – A Pendulum-type swing impact test in which the specimen with a V-notch is supported at both ends as a simple beam and broken by the swinging pendulum. The energy absorbed, as determined by the subsequent rise of the pendulum, is a measure of impact toughness strength or notch strength.

Chipping – The fracture and subsequent breakage of steel due to a lack of toughness.

Cold-work – Plastic deformation of steel at a temperature low enough to insure strain hardening. Also, a group of tool steel grades chemically enhanced to perform at temperatures below 800 degrees F.

Compressive strength - the ability for a tool steel to resist permanent deformation when a load is applied axially. When a load is applied in compression on a tool steel, the tool will compress in the longitudnal direction and expand outward. When the load is removed the tool will return to its original shape and size. If the tool doesn't return to its original dimensions, then the load has exceeded the tool's compressive strength.

Corrosion – The gradual chemical or electrochemical attack on steel by atmospheric moisture or other agents resulting in rusting or tarnishing.

Critical Temperature - The temperature at which austenite transforms to martensite. This is the stage of the heat treating process when hardening of the steel actually takes place.

Decarburization – The loss of carbon from the surface of steel. It is a common surface condition of hot rolled steel and is produced during the heating and rolling operations when atmospheric oxygen reacts with the heated surface removing the carbon.

Dimensional stability – Normally refers to the steels ability to hold its size during the heat treating processes.

Ductility – The ability of a steel to deform plastically without fracturing, being measured by elongation or reduction of area in a tensile test or by height of cupping in an Erichsen test.

Elastic Limit – The greatest amount of stress that a steel can withstand without a permanent deformation remaining upon complete removal of the stress.

Elements – a pure chemical substance consisting of one type of atom. Steels are comprised of iron, carbon and other elements such as silicon, manganese,chromium and vanadium.

Elongation – The amount of permanent extension in the vicinity of the fracture in the tensile or tension test, usually expressed as a percentage of the original gauge length, such as 20% in 3”.

Fatigue – The progressive fracture of a steel by means of a crack which spreads under repeated cycles of stress.

Galling – See adhesive wear.

Grade – Designates divisions within different groups of steel based on carbon content and mechanical properties.

Grain Size – The physical size of the austenite grains during austenizing. The actual size can vary due to thermal treatment, time and forging operations.

Grindability – Refers to the steel ability to readily be ground to a smooth finish, measured by the amount of material removed from the steel in comparison to the amount of grinding wheel removed.

Hardenability – Relates to the steel’s ability to harden upon quenching. The depth of the hardening is determined by the chemical analysis and grain size of the steel, the size of the part and the method of quenching. Carbon steels are generally considered to be shallow hardening while tool and high-speed steels are considered to be deep hardening or through hardening.

Hardening – The process of heating and cooling a steel to increase the hardness, also known as heat treating. Depending on the grade of steel, hardening can include age hardening, case hardening, flame hardening, induction hardening, precipitation hardening and quench hardening.

Hardness – The steels ability to resist indentation or penetration. Hardness is measured and reported bases on test results from Rockwell, Brinell or Vickers hardness tests.

Heat Treatment - The series of processes through which a steel in a solid state is repeatedly heated and cooled to achieve its desirable properties and hardness. The series of processes can include austenizing, quenching and tempering.

High-Speed – Indicates a class of tool steels that can withstand elevated temperatures for extended periods of time without softening after repeated use. Normally they are found to be used in high-speed cutting tools.

Impact Test – The test used to measure the steels ability to resist energy from impact. The test involves impact from a hammer on the sample material and is usually measured in foot pounds of energy. Two common test methods are Charpy and Izod.

Inclusions – Undesirable non-metallic elements occurring in metals such as oxides, sulphides and silicates.

Ingot – A steel casting that was formed when molten steel solidifies in a mold. The ingot is then reheated and rolled into slabs, plates, blooms or billets for further processing into bars and sheets.

Machinability – Refers to the steels ability to be turned, milled or shaped by mechanical means. Machinability ratings for tool steels are based on the ease of machining of W-1, usually indicated as a percentage of W-1's machinabilty.

Martensite – The resulting maximum hardness microstructure acquired from the transformation of the softer austenite microstructure. Steel must undergo this fully hardened stage before it can be tempered into a usable tool.

Mechanical Properties – The properties of steel that include modulus of elasticity, tensile strength, elongation, hardness and fatigue limit. These properties indicate the steels suitability for mechanical applications.

Metallurgy – The class of science dealing with the extraction of metals from their ores and the adaption and application of those raw elements for their intended use. Metallurgists formulate the chemical composition of the steel grades to fit a particular application.




Microstructure - The arrangement of atoms in steel. A ground, highly polished and etched picture of a sample which reveals the microstruure is referred to as a photomicrograph..

Modulus of Elasticity – The ratio within the limit of elasticity of the stress to the corresponding strain. The stress in pounds per square inch is divided by the elongation in fractions of an inch for each inch of the orginal length of the test specimen.

Nitriding – The process of adding nitrogen to an steel alloy by heating the metal in contact with ammonia gas or other suitable nitrogenous material. The purpose of the process if to produce a surface hardness. Nitriding is performed at temperatures between 935 and 1000 degrees F.

Oxidation – Exposure of steel to oxygen. Staining and discoloration can result from atmospheric exposure. Scaling and decarburization can result from exposure to oxygen at high temperatures.

Plastic Deformation – Deformation of a material that will remain after removal of the load which caused it.

Quenching – The process of rapidly cooling steel in order to obtain the fully hardened martensite microstructure by immersing or quickly cooling the steel in a quenching media. Quenching mediums can include salt brine, water, oil or air. The intensity of the quench is determined by the temperature, volume and velocity of the media.

Red Hardness – A steels ability to resist softening at elevated temperatures over extended periods of time.

Reduction of Area – The percentage difference between the original cross sectional area and that of the smallest area at the point of rupture.

Residual Stress - Stresses resulting from nonuniform plastic deformation or thermal gradients. Excessive coldworking or drastic temperature differences from quenching or welding may cause residual stress.

Rockwell Hardness – A measure of a hardened tool or high speed steel. A number based on the steels resistance to indentation.

Segregation – Referring to the chemical separation that can occur during the cooling of the molten metal into the ingot form.

Stainless – Designates the class of steels with the ability to resist corrosion from exposure to acids. High levels of Chromium or Nickel are added to the alloy to provide the necessary corrosion resistance.

Strain – Deformation of a material produced by an outside force.

Stress Releiving – The heating of steel to a temperature below its transformation temperature and then slowly cooling to minimize the development of new residual stresses.

Tempering – The process of reheating quenched steel to a suitable temperature below the transformation temperature for an appropriate amount of time. The steel is then allowed to cool to room temperature. This process changes the hardness, increases the toughness and reduces the stress in the steel.




Tensile Strength – The maximum amount of pressure in pounds per square inch that a material will carry before breaking under a slowly applied, gradually increasing load during a tensile test.

Tool Steel – A class of steel melted in electric furnaces to assure cleanliness and homogeneity that includes high carbon and alloy content. These steels are characterized by high hardness and resistance to abrasion and may include the resistance to softening at elevated temperatures. The intended purpose of the special steels are to be used as tools used to form other materials.

Toughness – The ability of a metal to absorb energy and plastically deform before fracturing. It is usually measured by the energy absorbed in a notched impact test.

Transverse Toughness – This is the steel's ability to flex in a sideways direction while maintaining the ability to return to its original shape without breaking or cracking.

Wear Resistance – A steels ability to resist erosion from contact with another material. Two types exist, see abrasive wear and adhesive wear.

Yield Strength – Stress corresponding to the fixed permanent deformation such as .1 or .2% offset from the modulus or elastic slope.

http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/tool-steel-terminology.html
 
I thought this was interesting:

Case Study #6: Powder Metal Compaction Punch


Tool Type: Powder Metal Compaction Punch

Work Material: FC-0208 Steel metal powder

Original Tooling Material: CPM® 3V® tool steel hardened to RC 58-60

Problem: The required high density of the compacted part combined with the high compaction forces required to form the part, would deform the bevel and face detail to the CPM® 3V® punch. The deformation of the face detail and bevel would require that the punch would be redressed after 20,000 parts were formed. More than 4 hours of downtime caused lost production.

Solution: Upgrade to Z-Wear PM® tool steel hardened to RC 62-64.

Results: Due to the higher toughness and higher hardness of the Z-Wear PM® at RC 62-64, the face detail and bevel resisted deformation. The face detail held intact for 55,000 parts before wear of the leading edge required the punch to be redressed.

http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/powder-metal-compaction-case-study-6.html

Most everyone says that 3V at 58-60 HRC is a tough mother, but at 62-64 HRC Z-wear performed the job better. That kind of surprised me.
 
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And this too:

Case Study #1: Slitter knife


Tool Type: Slitter knife

Work material: Fiberglass/Resin roll

Original tooling material: D-2 tool steel hardened to RC 60-62

Problem: The knife would wear out due to abrasion on the cutting edge. The dull knife edge would then cause tearing and fraying of the fiberglass resin material. Regrinding of the knife cutting edge was necessary after 7500 linear feet of processing.

Solution: Upgrade to PM M-4 high speed steel hardened to RC 60-62

Results: The customer was able to process 11,000 linear feet of material with the PM M-4 slitter knife before regrinding of the cutting edge was necessary. The fiberglass material was able to be cut smoothly and leave no frayed edges along the cut line. An additional benefit is the slitting speed was able to be increased by 10% resulting in greater productivity for the processor.

http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/slitter-knife-case-study-1.html

And here it basically says that M4 has almost double the abrasive wear resistance of D2.
 
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The best place for this topic is in fact Shoptalk. That is where the knife makers or whatever you call them can answer the questions, discuss various aspects of metallurgy, heat treating, and other such . It's practically in the name of the forum itself.
Genral knife is for discussing a specific knife or a class of knives. It's for most nonspecific discussions. If tou want real answers Shoptalk is the place. You are already into things that make this a perfect fit for the former.
 
The best place for this topic is in fact Shoptalk. That is where the knife makers or whatever you call them can answer the questions, discuss various aspects of metallurgy, heat treating, and other such . It's practically in the name of the forum itself.
Genral knife is for discussing a specific knife or a class of knives. It's for most nonspecific discussions. If tou want real answers Shoptalk is the place. You are already into things that make this a perfect fit for the former.

I don't know what else I'd call a knife maker other than a knife maker, but if you feel it's better over there, then ok. I thought since most people visit general knife discussion then having a reader's digest compilation of some stuff that generally pertains to knives would be acceptable here where most people could/ would see it. My apologies.

Well, it's already moved. I thought it was a good idea while it lasted. Now I'm just saying some basic stuff to a bunch of guys who probably already know it. Appreciate it, Rev.
 
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At first I was just asking because I didn't know some of it. I also know that people throw a bunch of garbage around. So I was just going to get a maker's, or two or five, knowledge compacted into an easy to digest thread where people who didn't know any better would have a good place to see why things are the way they are. When I found a source of some of the info I was asking about I posted it thinking it would help general knife consumers and connoisseurs know what was meant when makers talk about these things. Then it was moved to a place that's kind of designated for knife makers like the info will help them. I don't know why RevDevil moved it other than he just didn't want it in other subforum. I really thought it'd help people who aren't super into the deeper aspects figure stuff out and be more knowledgable. In this subforum it just seems like a waste of time and space.
 
Makers goals in heat treating are to produce knives that perform better than low end knives. duh

There are lots of things that affect the outcome and they will vary from steel to steel. Makers and heat treaters strive for fine grain structures and small evenly distributed carbides and the reduction or elimination of retained austenite. The proper hardness for a knife should be a balance between wear resistance and toughness.

Forgers and steel manufacturer's try to put the finished steel in a condition that will respond well to heat treating. The finer the grain and the smaller the carbide with proper phase transformations results in the best heat treatments.

Hoss
 
Im really confused as to what you're purpose is, Are you trying to inform us of nothing? Are you asking a question?
 
I am not an expert on this subject matter but do have a handful of 2cents to dish out :p OK, I only have time for a partial reply...

I hope the mods find this thread acceptable here. Normally I'd post something like this in shop talk but I think it may be really helpful for people to see what a heat treatment does and what the difference is between someone like Peter's heat treating and someone like Benchmade, Spyderco, or KAI.

Without getting too in depth, is there a knowledgable maker that can go into a little bit about the process of heat treating a piece of steel and what each step is supposed to be doing?

Goal is to uniformly distributed elements & particles(MC and MxCy forms), most importantly sufficient Carbon in solution (FCC phase) to form a martensite matrix at target hardness (up to 72rc). Certainly, you want particles in the right form and are as small as feasible.

And can can it be broken down into stainless vs high alloy tool steels vs basic high carbon low alloy steel?
Recently to keep thing simple and enable basic communication. I split steels into 2 main group.
G1 - those steels austenite at temperature below 1600F. Most of these are low (Cr+Mo) steels.
G2 - The rest.

Stainless mostly refer to where free Cr at least 13%.

Can someone break down what cementite, pearlite, austenite, and martensite are and why they'd be beneficial or harmful?
Cementite basic form is Fe3C but can have many shape. fine spheroidized form is prefer because of its strength & not a brittle as bainite&pearlite fern/finger/rod shape.
Pearlite = mostly ferrite and cementites (nominally finger fern pattern).
Austenite = iron & carbon in FCC (face center cubic) phase/shape
Martensite = iron and carbon in BCT (sheared from FCC form). Lath martensite is stronger & tougher than plate martensite.

... out of time...
 
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