Hardening low carbon steel

Status
Not open for further replies.
I read the thread and keep coming back to the question, "Why would anyone want to harden a "soft" steel?".


Why not use good steels from the git-go? Good steels are not expensive and they are readily available. Why spend hours working with second rate materials?

http://www.ajh-knives.com/metals.html

What am I missing here?
 
Liam Ryan said:
As an individual with no access to a work shop and having only hand tools and a vice, possible access to an angle grinder, and having a hard time finding the right steel for the job, I think mild steel is just the ticket.

I wanted to make some flat stock tomahawk along the line of rmj forges, as well as some of my own desIgns. after finding a big plate of readily available, free mild steel in 1/4 inch, I took it to a metal shop (that did not stock tool steel, and certainly not in the sizes i wanted) and thay cut out three designs for me.

Now I intend to get them pretty colse to filed how I want them, then try a few hardening ideas I have found.

Heat it up yellow hot in a hot charcoal coal bed, let it soak a good couple of hours, get it back up as hot as possible then quench in the brine and soap bath. This is if I can get it up there with a blower and some propane gas.

This I hope will heat enough into the edge and spike that it will be suitable for chopping and defense, but still be soft in the thicker portions to give it plenty of toughness.

I hope to use a similar set up in the future with some leaf springs and a big piece of I beam I saw somewhere that would make a nice anvil. A small out door blacksmith shop. I just have to get some good tips for my first forge.

Please be aware of a couple of possible consequences of this course of action if you intend to sell your product, which will be inferior to that of those who do it right.

1. You may become known as a maker that puts out second rate tools.

2. You could drag down public opinion of custom makers with people who have not dealt with reputable makers in the past.
 
Liam Ryan said:
As an individual with no access to a work shop and having only hand tools and a vice, possible access to an angle grinder, and having a hard time finding the right steel for the job, I think mild steel is just the ticket.

I wanted to make some flat stock tomahawk along the line of rmj forges, as well as some of my own desIgns. after finding a big plate of readily available, free mild steel in 1/4 inch, I took it to a metal shop (that did not stock tool steel, and certainly not in the sizes i wanted) and thay cut out three designs for me.

Now I intend to get them pretty colse to filed how I want them, then try a few hardening ideas I have found.

Heat it up yellow hot in a hot charcoal coal bed, let it soak a good couple of hours, get it back up as hot as possible then quench in the brine and soap bath. This is if I can get it up there with a blower and some propane gas.

This I hope will heat enough into the edge and spike that it will be suitable for chopping and defense, but still be soft in the thicker portions to give it plenty of toughness.

I hope to use a similar set up in the future with some leaf springs and a big piece of I beam I saw somewhere that would make a nice anvil. A small out door blacksmith shop. I just have to get some good tips for my first forge.
having a hard time finding the right steel for the job, I think mild steel is just the ticket.
:confused:
lets put it to you another way :D
I'm not sure why you'd want to do that
you'll waste your fuel..and time..if you want a reasonable job done after the fact..
you can not heat treat mild steel ,,
case Harding is the only option you'll have..unless you introduce carbon into all the steel by folding it in...if I were you, not wanting to waste time in making a hawk in mild steel, at least get some of the 10XX steel..leaf springs will work for you
for a cheap Anvil get some Rail Road track
I beam will be to flexible at the edges..
you have some reading to do ...all the info you need are with-in these threads..

Dang another Oooooooooooooooooold thread :(
 
Obviously, it is best to begin with the proper materials.

I only use all-hardenable consituent steels in my pattern welding. I will not use non-hardenable materials in a pattern welded billet intended to be a blade, such as 1018 or 203 as many others sometimes do.
Having said that, there was a time I did use 1018 occasionally. Once, I did a few "Viking-Style" PW knives that had some 1018 in the mix. I couldn't get them to harden properly because of the lowered carbon average. Since I had a lot of work in them I was inclided to experiment. I took them to the local Hinderliter heat treater and had them "deep carburized" (I think it was called. That, they said, added about .50 carbon to what was already there throughout the material (since it was less than 1/4 inch).
I had three knives and destruction tested two. The results were superb. Hard and very tough (as it would have been if I used material with an additional .50 carbon in it to begin with).
Bottom line: It can be done. It's not terribly cost effective. MUCH BETTER TO HAVE THE HC TO BEGIN WITH!
 
JCaswell said:
Obviously, it is best to begin with the proper materials.

............................ I took them to the local Hinderliter heat treater and had them "deep carburized" (I think it was called. That, they said, added about .50 carbon to what was already there throughout the material (since it was less than 1/4 inch).
.......................................


What is a "Hinderliter", not SCA is it? And what is the method of "deep carburized"?
I'd bet dimes to dollars that it's a "secret" process.:rolleyes:

There's just so much BS running around in the so called custom knifemaking scene, just when it was starting to die out due to exposure, and now it's all coming back, that it's no wonder more and more people are getting leary of custom knives.

People making knives and related cutlery objects from inferior materials with "secret processes" should be outed, and their names put on a list for all to see. It would give some buyers a little warning, so they'd know what they're jumping into.
That sort of thing gives the rest that use the best materials money can buy for their customers knives, a bad name, unfairly. This was mentioned above, but I thought it needed expounding on. It's a sore subject with me.:barf:
 
from a different point of view than some expressed here......
case hardening is a surface treatment done as a final process.It is not to create some other steel
And what is the method of "deep carburized"?

actually the most widely used method of making steel for centuries in fact used a similar process to pack case hardening in order to "deep carburize it" - it was called blister steel........this was then often further processed into shear steel (a random pattern "Damascus") and later crucible or "cast" steel

1) Blister-steel: Steel formed by roasting wrought iron bars in contact with carbon in a cementing furnace. It is so called from the blistered appearance of it's outer skin. To improve the quality, it was subjected to two subsequent processes, which converted it into shear-steel and cast-steel.
Blister steel was NOT a one off method for individual blades, but rather a method of making large amounts of steel - this method was developed circa the 1500's. James Hanson mentions in his Fur Trade Cutlery Sketch Book, that the bars of wrought iron used for making blister steel were 2" x 4" x 20 feet.

2) Shear-steel: Blister-steel was sheared into shorter, manageable lengths, heated, and tilt hammered to homogenize the steel which improved the quality. Several bars are welded together and drawn out. Shear-steel is named from its applicability to the manufacture of cutting instruments, shears, knives, scythes, etc. The bar is sometimes cut, fagoted, reheated, and again tilted. This may be repeated. The terms single shear and double shear indicate the extent to which the process is carried.
This is in fact a type/form of random pattern pattern welded Damascus first introduced into England circa 1690. It was widely used for blades of all types through the end of the 19th Century. Unlike modern times when Damascus is generally etched to accentuate the grain/pattern, shear steel blades were polished during the 18th/19th century, so one cannot tell just by looking, unless one does an etch or other test.
Was raw shear steel stock imported to the New World? Possibly, but so far I've come across no documentation of such importation. On the other hand finished blades of shear steel were IMO most likely imported, since until the 1760-70's, when crucible steel production was well on it's way, it was the most widely used cutlery steel in Sheffield, Eng. and thousands of English knives were imported. IMO documentation for such importation, if it exists would most likley be in the form of invoices to cutlers/makers/dealers in the large trade centers - documentation for it's use on the frontiere would be negligible at best.

3) Cast-steel (aka crucible steel - I believe this is the steel Mike Ameling alluded to above): Blister steel which has been broken up, fused in a crucible, cast into ingots, and rolled. The blocks of steel are melted in crucibles of re fractory clay, and the molten metal is poured into ingot-molds of cast-iron. These are opened, to let out the red-hot ingot, which is then passed to the rolls.
The process of making cast/crucible steel was developed by Benjamin Huntsman, of Sheffield, England, circa 1745. Oddly, crucible steel at first was not greeted well by the Sheffield makers while the French cutlers soon recognized it's qualities. The Sheffield makers even went so far as to ask the government for an embargo on the raw steel.
By 1840 the English had developed the cast steel method to the point that English steel made in this way became 40% (about 20,000 tons a year - up from the 200 tons a year produced by the English using all previous methods) of all steel produced in Europe (other steel centers of note during the period were: Germany (manganese and other trace minerals in the local ore made it a better than normal alloy), Spain, and Sweden). A few years later, in the 1850's, the Bessemer process was developed which increased steel production immensely.

and FWIW and with all due respect to many of my learned colleagues here -there are many folks (the world is after all MUCH wider than the "custom knife world") who are interested in re-producing those methods in the interest of historical re-productions/study. And while they do not make a knife or sword or ax "better" in technological terms, for those interested in such things it is a way of "touching" the past (and it it's own way making it "better" for them) that CAN NOT be duplicated by using modern methods or materials.....

as always others mileage will vary.......

PS this of course does not mean that everybody should "return to the past", only that there are different reasons for building knives, etc - of course if ones choice is to make modern pieces than one should use modern materials..........
 
Mike,

Hinderliter (now Hinderliter/Bodycote) is a major national chain of industrial heat treating outfits.

The 'deep carburizing' (I think they called it) is not secret or proprietary. If I remember their explanation correctly, it involved heating the steel to critical for a specified period of time while subjecting it to a specific carburizing atmosphere. I don't remember if they said it was under vacuum, or presure or simply oxygen free. It did involve high-end equipment, but nothing other big pro shops wouldn't have.

My understanding is it's like case hardening, but deeper. If your material is not too thick, it goes all the way through, and the carbon increase should be uniform. My material was just over 1/8 inch and I remember them telling me that full penetration was within their standard capabilities, though I remember them telling me it wasn't something they were used to doing. Usually you're after a softer core when using this process.

At first, they were sort of baffled why I would want to increase the total carbon average. It was I that approached them with my problem and proposed a deep case hardening regimen. I was happy their capabilities were so well suited to my problem.
If you call them, this isn't something they're going to say, "Oh yah, we do that all the time!" I talked with their chief engineer for some time until he was perfectly clear on what I was trying to achieve. Then he suggested/designed the exact approach.


No magic, just a creative application of a standard industrial process.
 
Again,
As I stated before,
One more time ...

The above-described approach is not something I would recommend as some sort of routine.

It would be better/cheaper/easier to simply used higher-carbon material to begin with!

This was a "let's see if we can pull this one from the fire" routine that happened to work out. Why it worked (increasing carbon to where it should have been to begin with) seems logical to me. No secrets, gimmicks, or other hooey.

But again, in case anyone missed it:
Do yourself a favor and use higher-carbon material to start with!
 
JCaswell said:
Mike,

Hinderliter (now Hinderliter/Bodycote) is a major national chain of industrial heat treating outfits.

The 'deep carburizing' (I think they called it) is not secret or proprietary. If I remember their explanation correctly, it involved heating the steel to critical for a specified period of time while subjecting it to a specific carburizing atmosphere. I don't remember if they said it was under vacuum, or presure or simply oxygen free. It did involve high-end equipment, but nothing other big pro shops wouldn't have.

My understanding is it's like case hardening, but deeper. If your material is not too thick, it goes all the way through, and the carbon increase should be uniform. My material was just over 1/8 inch and I remember them telling me that full penetration was within their standard capabilities, though I remember them telling me it wasn't something they were used to doing. Usually you're after a softer core when using this process.

At first, they were sort of baffled why I would want to increase the total carbon average. It was I that approached them with my problem and proposed a deep case hardening regimen. I was happy their capabilities were so well suited to my problem.
If you call them, this isn't something they're going to say, "Oh yah, we do that all the time!" I talked with their chief engineer for some time until he was perfectly clear on what I was trying to achieve. Then he suggested/designed the exact approach.


No magic, just a creative application of a standard industrial process.


Thanks for the explanation. I thought it was some of that crazy SCA stuff they used to spout on a voice chat forum years ago. I never did think those people were quite right.;)

I agree though, a better approach is to use higher carbon steel to begin with.
 
Mike Hull said:
Thanks for the explanation. I thought it was some of that crazy SCA stuff they used to spout on a voice chat forum years ago. I never did think those people were quite right.;)
Hahaha!
You're right, there's some really strange stuff going on out there.

You haven't lived until you're approached by one of these folks with a small vile of his/her own blood asking to have it "forged into a blade."
 
Do you want just the edge hardened? Perhaps try a small strip of quality tool steel welded in (pattern hammer forged, or by gas or arc) and hot-hammer-form any weld bead prior to final profiling & quench. I have seen Chinese hatchets coming into the US lately made entirely of mild steel with just the last 3/4 inch made of higher grade steel. Yes, they are inexpensive, but fully functional. What is important is that you try different things and broaden your comfort zone. (It will feel good to be able to say, "been there, done that", even if the next words are, "hated it!").
- Bob Flowers (old retired guy)
 
I would doubt that after 8 years the original poster is still trying to figure this process out.... Please look at the dates on these threads when posting as the discussion is long dead.
 
Welcome to Shop Talk, Bob.

As suggested, always look at the date of any thread you pull up in a search.

Thread closed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top