Hatchet Hardening

zatch said:
Did not know that! Can I polish it as it is or do I need to bring the whole bit up to a certain grit level first (like 800-2000)?
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You'll need to sand past the hamon line, so you might need to sand more of the head. Getting it up to 600 grit should do it.
 
M3mphis said:
I agree with Nick.

One thing to note:

We use the word "hamon" to describe heat treat lines in the axe forum. That is technically incorrect. A hamon is a heat treat line created by the ancient japanese technique of differential hardening using clay to slow the cooling of the part of the steel intended to be softer and more springy than the hard edge.

Just a technicality, not a biggie.
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I guess I don't understand. You're saying the process makes a difference? Isn't a heat treat line a heat treat line no matter the method? Or is "hamon" a japanese word that refers to the process and not the line itself?
 
Not that it matters, but this one looks very much like a True Temper Kelly Woodslasher to me. A later one but still True Temper.

re Memphis lines:

Just picked up this Crucible Cast Steel Broad hatchet. Line can be seen here:



Also this "it followed me home" jersey:

 
"Memphis Lines." Boo yah. :D

Here's another where the smith used the insert method:

P1050836.JPG


P1050845.JPG


P1050838.JPG
 
Shotgun said:
I guess I don't understand. You're saying the process makes a difference? Isn't a heat treat line a heat treat line no matter the method? Or is "hamon" a japanese word that refers to the process and not the line itself?
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That's my understanding. Yes, a heat treat line is a heat treat line. But a "hamon" is generally attained by specific methods originating from Japan including using clay quenches. I guess that there is some debate, as some will call a heat treat line a "hamon" if the lines are wispy and wavy regardless of the method used. That being said, a straight, simple heat treat line without the depth and "wispiness" of a hamon is just a heat treat line. Now I'm seriously dabbling in things I know too little about, but that's my understanding. Here's some reading material in the knife maker's forum. There is tons more on hamons.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/914634-Whats-happening-to-create-a-hamon?highlight=japanese+hamon

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/861235-Is-this-a-hamon?highlight=japanese+hamon
 
nickzdon said:
What's shown in the video is more common in custom hand made axes and hatchets today. It's the old ooollllllddddd, way of doing it by hand. What I'm showing in my photo is steel bits applied to the outside of a casted head/poll (I'm fairly certain), rather than inserted into the head. I may have been a little lax in my application of two-piece vs multi-piece terminology, which may have caused confusion.

Here's a patent showing Kelly's patent for casting axe heads that would then take hardened bits (the patent refers to these bitless heads as 'polls') This is the construction method I'm assuming the axe I show above is the product of. I'm not 100% certain that it's a cast poll, could be forged. I'm still investigating that.
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This one is marked "cast steel" so I'm guess it is similar construction as yours. Nice though that I only paid $1 for this one. Still life left in it.

7312de7ee58b11e1984822000a1cf771_7.jpg
 
I would think that a a multi piece head would be less sturdy than a one piece. Can you at all feel the difference when using it?

~Zim
 
Zimbabwe said:
I would think that a a multi piece head would be less sturdy than a one piece. Can you at all feel the difference when using it?

~Zim
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An ax head with a laminated edge (high carbon in the center with low carbon supporting it) is just as sturdy as a single steel ax head. As long as it was welded properly!
This technology was superior to single steel ax heads up until the early 20th century. With the advent of better, more uniform steels and better heat treatment methods single steel heads are every bit as good as the laminated ones. With proper heat treatment and quality steels I'd say that neither has an 'edge' today. The reason that we don't see many laminated heads today is the extra cost incurred in laminating the harder steel. The densities of the high and low carbon steel is very close so there should be little difference in two axes with similar weights and profiles.
 
Back to the original hatchet, I dont think its chinese at all, it appears to be a late modal True Temper Kelly hatchet and looks like you got a lot of use left in it.
In my experience most of the chinese stuff is marked so somewhere, the later Kellys had paper marks like yours had.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong!!

Larry
 
bax 40 said:
Back to the original hatchet, I dont think its chinese at all, it appears to be a late modal True Temper Kelly hatchet and looks like you got a lot of use left in it.
In my experience most of the chinese stuff is marked so somewhere, the later Kellys had paper marks like yours had.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong!!

Larry
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I'm with Larry. 1970s TT Kelly woodslasher. Red with the leavings of a label. Not chinese.

This is my 2.25# boy's axe.

 
About the original hatchet and hamons (pronounced hah-moan, btw), a hamon is the result of a shallow hardening steel being quenched. Japanese smiths don't always use clay, that's just a way to guide (not control) the pattern. On this hatchet and mine its likely the result of a shallow hardening steel that due to the greater mass of the poll compared to the bit and also quenching only the edge or using an engineered quenchant formulated for the rate the edge hardens results in an erratic quench line, aka hamon, and only the edge hardening.

An easy way to tell the comparative hardness between the two areas is to take an automatic center punch and punch a mark on each side of the line. The softer steel will make a larger dimple. It won't give you a hardness number, but will show soft vs. hard steel.


Polish and etch to bring that hamon out!


-Xander
 
Uh....that's not a hamon. That axe has forge welded bit of high carbon steel done with the insert rather than overlay method. The top of the axe shows the story.
 
Are you referring to the OP's hatchet? Sure seems that the concensus is that hatchet is of monosteel construction.


-X
 
zatch said:
Have a question on a recent hatchet I picked up...

I don't know much when it comes to the hardening or quenching process on axes. I picked up a little hatchet recently - unknown brand but seemed good. I cleaned it up and started sharpening it. As I was filing (there were some nice nicks in the edge), I noticed that of all the axes I've done up until now, this is by far the hardest edge I have ever worked on. I spent hours on this little guy and I have still have some spots that need to be worked out. I'm not worried about that but it did get me a bit curious.

P5060553.jpg


Here it is after a clean up and sharpening...besides the filing, the sharpening process (sandpaper, convex) wasn't too bad at all.

P5070580.jpg


P5070578.jpg


Usually after a dunk in some vinegar, the edge turns black revealing the portion of hardened metal. I understand that much. However, after submerging this one for just a couple of hours, I got this. This after a quick water rinse and scrubbing.

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In my experience, some less quality axes didn't have such a nice, distinct hamon line - the metal ended up being too soft as well. It seems as if this one was hardened properly and then double hardened? After sharpening, it took a really, really nice edge. Slices paper and arm hair with ease. I would doubt it, but would sharpening it up before a vinegar bath (while somewhat pointless :o) cause that look?

I haven't been able to find an answer quite yet (I've come up with the terms "differentially hardened" and "double tempered" but I don't know if those would be correct), so any information you guys have would be appreciated!

P5070589.jpg
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I'm going for a central insert of harder steel. See how the etch line curves at top & bottom, this is typical of an insert. We need to see top & bottom pics.
 
Except that the hatchet was made in the 1970s. I don't see this as an insert. This looks like a hardening line to me.
 
fast14riot said:
Are you referring to the OP's hatchet? Sure seems that the concensus is that hatchet is of monosteel construction.
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Sorry. No, I was talking about the Mustad.

We need to see a top view of the OP's hatchet to make a determination. It's easy to see that Matt's Mustad is an insert.

P1050845.JPG
 
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